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Monday Morning Coffee Talk!!!!- warning on heated topic
  • [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,551
    Morning ladies- I survived my family reunion so I desperately need my ~O) today!!!

    @lauriebizz :-* I hope you are feeling better.


    Today's coffee talk discussion:

    Vaccines. Deep breath in but we have some new legislation being attempted:

    Here is the article I came upon this morning: http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/new-health-care-mandate-send-parents-to-doctor/

    "Unrelated to Obamacare, but instead coming from a state health-care push, the proposal, AB 2109 by Assemblyman Richard Pan, D-Sacramento, “seeks to rein in parents who object to mandatory vaccines for students,” according to officials with the Pacific Justice Institute.

    The legal team said the present law allows parents to opt their children out of mandatory shots by sending a letter to the school and stating their beliefs that provide a foundation for their objections.

    “Assemblyman Pan’s bill would require the creation of a new government form for those parents to complete, and would also require them to get a signature and information from a doctor, nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant about vaccines and communicable diseases,” the organization reported.

    “The latter mandate would likely require parents to spend time and money in a doctor’s office when they are not sick, just to get information they could have accessed online.” "

    SO my coffee talk question is: does the government have the right to force parents to go to these lengths to make decisions about their own child's welfare!?!?!


    PLEASE KEEP THIS CIVIL :-B
  • irishlassirishlass
    Posts: 6,785Member
    I think its a good idea for ALL parents to go through a mandatory vaccination information form, so that they know the actual medical facts about it. 
    I personally am FOR vaccinations. I understand why some people are not, but i think that everyone should be fully informed.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel. Because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter." - Dr. Seuss
  • AnonMomAnonMom
    Posts: 2,410Member
    I think this is implying that parents that CHOOSE to not vaccinate are illiterate, uneducated dolts.  Do we know what the statistics are on the socioeconomics of those parents that CHOOSE not to vaccinate are?  I'll go find out for us. 


  • [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,551
    @anonmom- this is the best article I've seen : http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa0806477#t=article

    "Using data from the National Immunization Survey for the period from 1995 through 2001, Smith et al. compared the characteristics of children between the ages of 19 and 35 months who did not receive any vaccine (unvaccinated) with the characteristics of those who were partially vaccinated (undervaccinated).47 As compared with the undervaccinated children, the unvaccinated children were more likely to be male, to be white, to belong to households with higher income, to have a married mother with a college education, and to live with four or more children. 47 Other studies have shown that children who are unvaccinated are likely to belong to families that intentionally refuse vaccines, whereas children who are undervaccinated are likely to have missed some vaccinations because of factors related to the health care system or sociodemographic characteristics.48-51"
  • LoveLove
    Posts: 12,840Administrator, Moderator
    Wow @Chocoholic. I love ya girl, but is there not a more recent statistical survey on that?
    ""for the period from 1995 through 2001 "" 
     That's over 10 years old!

    community-manager


  • AnonMomAnonMom
    Posts: 2,410Member
    Here's a hypothesis from an abstract submitted to Princeton in 2006:

    Mother’s Level of Education. I expect mother’s level of education is negatively
    associated with vaccine status. Because parents with more education are generally better able
    to understand the complex information contained in medical articles and web sites (from
    which many obtain arguments against immunizations), I expect that children whose mothers
    graduated from college are more likely to be un-vaccinated than children whose mothers did
    not graduate high school.

    Household Income & Poverty Status. I expect income/poverty status is negatively
    associated with vaccine status. Specifically, I expect that children who live in households
    with higher income (above $50,000 per year) are more likely to be un-vaccinated than
    children who live in households with lower income (below poverty).

    The following passages are from the same abstract and talk about the findings of the research:

    Having been breastfed is significantly associated with vaccine status. Children who were
    ever breastfed are significantly more likely to be un-vaccinated than they are to have received
    any vaccinations. This higher proportion of breastfed children who are un-vaccinated may
    reflect an association between these two characteristics though a common link, possibly the
    back-to-nature movement that has a particular interest in organic foods and physical wellbeing
    that may influence their attitudes towards vaccinations.

    Interestingly, breastfed children are also more likely to be fully-vaccinated than children
    who were not breastfed. However, breastfed children are so much more likely to be unvaccinated
    that the larger number that are fully-vaccinated is balanced out by the smaller
    number who are partly-vaccinated (so that together, breastfed children are significantly less
    likely to have had any vaccinations).

    The least educated and most educated mothers (those who
    did not complete high school and those who graduated from college) have the highest
    proportions of un-vaccinated children in the sample. However, children with more highly
    educated mothers also tend to be fully-vaccinated and children with less educated mothers
    also tend to be partly-vaccinated. So, children of college graduates tend to be either unvaccinated
    or fully-vaccinated, while children of mothers who did not finish high school tend
    to be either un-vaccinated or partly-vaccinated.

    The highest proportion of un-vaccinated children are in households with incomes above
    poverty but less than $50k per year (moderate income), followed by households with
    incomes above $50k per year (the highest income category). Households with income below
    poverty have the lowest proportion of un-vaccinated children (and yet these same households
    have the highest proportion of partly-vaccinated children.

    *************************************

    I pulled out the hypotheses and findings from research that helped support my previous statement.  It is based on analytical research....by the numbers.  Here is the link to the abstract in case you are curious:

    http://paa2009.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=90224


    The highest percentage of un-vaccinated children do not come from uninformed, uneducated, low income homes.
  • AnonMomAnonMom
    Posts: 2,410Member
    OH!  There's also something in there about living in states that don't allow exemptions vs. states that do.  We obviously know which have the highest percentage of vaccinated children!  HA!

    It also has numbers to show you that vaccinated numbers have actually increased.  The un-vaccinated has too.  In 2006 it was at 0.45% of children were un-vaccinated with 99.5% being vaccinated at any level.
  • AnonMomAnonMom
    Posts: 2,410Member
    And now for coffee......
    ~O)
  • BeerWenchBeerWench
    Posts: 2,820Member
    ~O) and more ~O)

    As for vaccinations - mine has all hers. The conundrum... I want my child protected from diseases, if we don't vaccinate there is a possiblity of deseases making a resurgence and possibly a new strain. Sinilar to what we see in the super bugs like MRSA. I also don't think that the government should tell me how to raise my child.
    :¦:-•:*'""*:•.-:¦:-•** She who leaves a trail of glitter is never forgotten**•-:¦:-•:*'""*:• -:¦:-
  • PurpleFlowersPurpleFlowers
    Posts: 5,781Member
    Yes exactly what @lauriebizz said
    Including the more coffee thing. lol
    Stay away from my chocolate and nobody gets hurt!

    I think I like who I am becoming...
  • BeerWenchBeerWench
    Posts: 2,820Member
    @momof2boys42 LOL I need more coffee... unfortunatly someone stole my debit card number over the weekend and wiped my bank account out to the tune of $1,500+ and I have $8.81 to my name until payday.  Thank God my payday is Wednesday.  I'm scrounging up change at my desk, I feel like a college kid at taco bell. LOL
    :¦:-•:*'""*:•.-:¦:-•** She who leaves a trail of glitter is never forgotten**•-:¦:-•:*'""*:• -:¦:-
  • AnonMomAnonMom
    Posts: 2,410Member
    It could also be argued that new strains of what is being vaccinated against could pop up and cause problems.

    FYI -- My son is fully vaccinated.  I cannot say one way or another if I would have done vaccination if he hadn't of been born early.  I have CHOSEN to continue his vaccinations however.  No point in stopping short if I am physically and financially capable of doing so.  The abstract I found also mentioned that vaccines in 2006 were on average $447 or something like that.
  • AnonMomAnonMom
    Posts: 2,410Member
    OH SNAP!!  That's horrible @lauriebizz!!  Anything you can do about that?
  • BeerWenchBeerWench
    Posts: 2,820Member
    @anonmom yes, the bank is going to cover it and any fees associated.  But things are going to bounce and I have no money - thankfully we have a pantry full of food that we never eat (why is that?), gas in our cars and payday is only a few days away... so much for my budget this month!
    :¦:-•:*'""*:•.-:¦:-•** She who leaves a trail of glitter is never forgotten**•-:¦:-•:*'""*:• -:¦:-
  • shouldcleanshouldclean
    Posts: 2,541Member
    I have vaccinated both my kids. We even get flu shots because my son has asthma and a cold landed him in the hospital for 3 days.

    I also have to say that some kind of counseling isn't a terrible idea. The government isn't saying you have to do it. But when you start googling information you come up with info that is extremely biased to one side or another. Anything is like this and you usually only find the horror stories.
  • AnonUser37
    Posts: 1,765Member
    I love it. I don't see any problem with forcing parents to be educated by medical professionals. You can access all sorts of information online that is FALSE and a college education does not prevent one from acting with ignorance and without any thought for how their actions will effect the rest of us, which is what I personally feel, not vaccinating amounts to.

  • ImWendyImWendy
    Posts: 6,527Member
    I agree with this, although I sometimes feel that doctors have their own agenda when it comes to medication.
    deus ex machina
  • PhDMommyPhDMommy
    Posts: 714Member
    @Meghann is that meant to read "a college education does prevent" or "a college education does NOT prevent"?   If it is the latter I whole-heartily agree with your entire statement.  And for the record I know plenty of people with advanced degrees with less common sense than an earthworm!

    Also I don't agree with this part: “The latter mandate would likely require parents to spend time and money
    in a doctor’s office when they are not sick, just to get information
    they could have accessed online.”  First off I would think that this type of education/information would be presented during routine well-baby/child checks. Secondly, just as Meghann said there is loads of false or misleading "information" online.  Don't believe everything you read.
    Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
    No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
  • i_am_a_thunderbirdi_am_a_thunderbird
    Posts: 1,684Member
    I am all for vaccinations - my child has been vaccinated and we've never had any issues.

    I DO NOT think the government should have the right to force parents to do anything they don't want to do or don't feel is in the best interest of their child. Period. That is giving the government WAY too much control over people and limiting the ability of parents to make informed, important decisions for themselves and their families.

    Seems shady to me that the government wants to "reign in parents" who don't want to vaccinate. Police state much????

    I don't really care if parents choose not to vaccinate. My kid is vaccinated so if he's around a kid who isn't, he's protected. End of story.
  • AnonUser37
    Posts: 1,765Member
    Oops! Sorry @phdmommy, you are correct that should say does NOT! Not enough coffee!
  • [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,551
    @love, the article is from 2009? There aren't all that many really good ones unfortunately...
  • NoMoreMonkeysNoMoreMonkeys
    Posts: 533Member
    I don't think the government should mandate vaccines.  I think they are a good idea, I chose them for my kids (at a different pace than the doctors, 5 shots in one day...bitch please), but I am not going to tell you what to do with your kids.  If your kids contribute to an outbreak of pertussis, or rubella and a baby dies...you can bet I will be pissed, but you have to live with it...not me.  Bottom line is that the government should not step into parenting unless there is serious or ongoing neglect or abuse.
  • anonymommy
    Posts: 1,491Member
    I didn't really take the time to read all of the responses, but I think education is always a good thing.  I wonder, though, how biased the "education" they give will be?  Are they going to give the same "education" to all parents, or just those choosing to opt out?  (didn't really read the article either...sorry)  I'm not sure if it's even possible to just give straight facts on this issue that aren't intended to influence one way or another? 

    I'm pro-vax, fwiw, and my son has had all of his. 
  • AnonMomAnonMom
    Posts: 2,410Member
    I agree wholeheartedly @NoMoreMonkeys!
  • fantasticalmamafantasticalmama
    Posts: 139Member
    My daughter had horrible reactions to each one of her vaccinations..she was always the 1 in a million. I have anxiety attacks every time we have to get  a new vaccine. I worked in the medical field, I understand the fears of an outbreak- but in my opinion you have a higher chance of your child getting antibiotic resistant mrsa at an ER visit than half the things they vaccinate for. If the government wants to be so adamant about getting your child vaccinated, how about stricter sanitation policies in schools and daycare. Perhaps, requiring childhood education facilities to send kids home when they are sick and to not return until they are better. 
  • kcsmommykcsmommy
    Posts: 186Member
    I don't see a problem with educating parents on vaccines, but it will probably be a one sided education in stead of a wholistic education. Like a quote in the article says you can get all the information you need off the internet!! I am sure the education that they would give in a doctors office you could get just by going to the CDC website and reading and researching there. In the end I say its a big waste of time because of all the people I know who selectively vaccinate or do not vaccinate at all has done their reasearch and a much more in depth research than you can get in a doctors office!
  • hallfamily727hallfamily727
    Posts: 277Member

    My family is a case study.  Oldest child (only girl) is fully vaccinated with very few issues from them.  Oldest son (I have 3 boys) had a horrible reaction to a vaccine at 14 months that required us to stop everything until we knew what the problem was and we never went back.  His severe asthma and allergies were not present until then, so we're now dealing with the fallout.  Youngest two boys are not vaccinated and are the healthiest kids of my 4 by far.  All the other variables remain the same: all breastfed, etc.  That being said, I don't look down on anyone who chooses vaccination for their child as long as they respect my decision as well.  I think far too many ppl out there jump down nonvax parents' throats without understanding WHY they made that decision.

    As far as the gov't is concerned, I don't believe that they should have a right to tell use how to raise our children.  I share the same view on abortion and other women's health issues.  Why is a predominately male governing body allowed to make health care decisions for women and children?  Duh!  I also don't like how the study insinuates that just because I only have a high school diploma (quit college to raise my kids and still kicking myself for it), I must have no idea what I'm talking about.  The decision to stop vaccinations was not one made easily in my household.  There was a LOT of research done.

    Now....since I don't like coffee, will Dr. Pepper suffice?

  • MamaAce
    Posts: 404Member
    To each their own. I think the doctor offices should educate parents/guardians more than they do about them though. I also believe they should be optional. 

    I personally believe in vaccines. My kids have never had any reactions from them..not so much as a fever or anything. The chicken pox vaccine is a Godsend. All 3 of my kids have all been exposed at one point in time and none of them got so much as 1 spot. 

    What I don't believe is that vaccines cause autism. I think something else causes that...something underlying in the genes that no one has discovered yet. I'm obviously not a doctor though so that's just my opinion.
  • MamaAce
    Posts: 404Member
    Oh and I do believe they should stop using allergens in vaccines. My 2 1/2 year old nephew is severely allergic to peanuts, eggs, wheat, soy, all dairy and a HUGE list of other foods (basically there's more that he can't eat than he can) and he isn't going to be able to get a lot of his vaccines because of that. It scares me that he'll be "exposed" to certain illnesses because he can't be protected. 
  • roserose
    Posts: 30Member
    You know, I am pretty hard-core PRO-vaccinations...but I am also pretty hard-core ANTI-gov't mandates.  I was sincerely TICKED that I couldn't get priority registration in the public schools because priority registration is in April, my DS's b-day is in May, and he wouldn't get 1 vaccine until his 5 year check up.  So I can't get into the morning kindergarten classes because of when my son was born!  I threw a HISSY FIT!!  Did not make many friends with the school administration...I asked for a conscientious objection form...the nurse actually ROLLED HER EYES AT ME!!, AUDIBLY SIGHED!!!!, and gave me a piece of paper with an address for the county health office.  Apparently, in order to NOT vaccinate your children, you have to REGISTER with the STATE!!!  Ridiculous!  

    Again, in the interests of being blunt, I'm pretty convinced that most people who refuse ALL vaccinations are stupid.  But for the gov't to take that choice or to hinder the choices of parents is completely unacceptable.

    That being said, for every vaccination with every child, my doctor has printed out a document explaining the ingredients of the vaccine, risks for contracting the virus if you choose not to vaccinate, possible and probable side effects and reactions to the vaccine, and possible and probable side effects of the disease.  I always felt very informed.  Granted, I could at any time look this stuff up on the internet, but part of the reason I chose the doctor that I have is because of how important educating her patients is to her.  Maybe if people feel like their doctor isn't doing enough for them, it isn't a question of further regulation of the medical establishment but more of a question of, why are you paying a doctor for less than superior service?  Use your capitalistic power to refuse to pay for stuff that isn't worth paying for.  Crappy doctors shouldn't have patients.  Supply and Demand people...decrease the demand for a crappy doc and they will longer be able to supply crappy service.  Bottom line.
  • hallfamily727hallfamily727
    Posts: 277Member

    @MamaAce....my son tested positive for a peanut allergy at 15 months.  LONG before he was able to even eat peanut butter.  We stopped vaccinations b/c of his reactions to them and he was retested at age 3.  Peanut allergy was gone.  Weird.

    @roserose....I'm not stupid.  I made the choice that I did because of a medically documented reaction my son had to what was later determined to most likely be a standard preservative or culture ingredient in the vaccines.  This was verified by two different doctors and half a dozen tests that my baby had to be put through to determine his problems.  After being told that some of those preservatives bond most strongly with testosterone by yet a third doctor, we opted out of vaccinations for my other 2 boys when they were born.  Please don't insinuate that parents who opt out of vaccines are stupid.  I do agree, however, that if you are unhappy with the doctor your family sees.....get a new one!  There are plenty of them out there.

  • roserose
    Posts: 30Member
    @hallfamily727....I didn't say there weren't valid reasons to NOT vaccinate...obviously you have done your homework and sadly, it couldn't be done for your child.  That's what I used the word "most" instead of "all"...
  • bombkittybombkitty
    Posts: 306Member
    I don't think the "education" you would get would be unbiased.  I've worked for the gov't for almost 20 years and I don't trust it.  Some vaccines are good, like polio, some I could do without, like the chicken pox vaccine.  Or Gardasil, which they tried to make mandatory in TX.  I'd rather teach my daughter and sons to respect themselves and be responsible than flood their system with more chemicals...  off to eat granola and not shave my legs, LOL.
  • pdxmama
    Posts: 1,470Member
    Oh to vax or not to vax? I personally am pro vaccination and my kids are both fully vaccinated. They both also have PDD/HFA. After my son was diagnosed I had a brief moment of OMG, maybe there really is something to that whole MMR injury causing autism. I was reading everything the Internet had to offer b/c I wanted to know the cause, felt like it had to be "something that happened" or whatever. So when dd was born in decided that I wouldn't do the MMR with her. Still wanted to vaccinate her, but chose to do them all individually with a month btwn each one instead of the 3 in 1 shot. Well, guess what she has HFA too, so there goes that theory. (not to mention the fact that the study has been totally debunked now, and they've proven that the research was flawed.) But whatever, if I paid attention to every study that came out about possible autism causes I'd go batshit crazy! Bottom line is that vaccinating your kids is a personal choice, everyone should be educated about it in order to make the most informed decision possible, but to me it feels like having mine fully vaccinated is the responsible choice, for them and for the kids around them.
  • pdxmama
    Posts: 1,470Member
    My kids were also both VERY premature, so not vaccinating them would have added increased risks to their health for sure.