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Why there should be no such thing as "pro-life"
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That doesn't change the fact that you called all these women, short of being raped or having a medical condition, irresponsible and should suffer the consequences. I had said many, NOT ALL, do believe they are being safe, MANY. There is quite a difference there @domineaux Perhaps it's easier to judge when you believe they're all irresponsible.
That last part doesn't cause me outrage or surprise me really. -
@MammaTeeRollMost
I think you will find that those who are against welfare are quite dominantly against never ending multi-generational welfare. Welfare as a system to help someone get back on their feet is absolutely different than what we have now which is more like a career choice and one that you can even bring your children into the family business of.
As for foster care funding, I cannot say that I have ever heard any complaints except that like everything government touches, a huge amount of money is wasted through inefficient bureaucracy.
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Koala82 said:The reason I say its acceptable for a person who was raped is because of the fact that most cannot see the silver-lining as I would like to say. Yes something bad happened to you but out of this bad act a miracle occurred type of mental thinking. Most would not be able to stand the child from such an act.
@Love This is why. Granted I would much rather that people didn't abort at all unless there was a danger to the mother or child but that isn't the way it is.
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@Koala82 but the child deserves no defense because of the situation surrounding its conception?""Most would not be able to stand the child from such an act."But then why would that same logic not apply to a woman who could not support an additional dependent?Or who did not have the means nor the emotional or mental capacity to care for an additional life?
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CollegeMom said:
So I am wondering if you are also supportive of these new laws which seem to be aimed at making it more difficult for women to have access to birth control @domineaux?
What laws are you talking about?
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Those that allow employers to decide whether or not to include BC in health insurance, or those which allow pharmacists to refuse to dispense it.
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I would also like to ask whoever is laughing at all my comments exactly what it is about what I am saying on this very serious subject which strikes them as funny? Please feel free to PM me!
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@Collegemom Have you seen the Lott/Whitley analysis regarding abortion and crime?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott#Abortion_and_crime
@BellaBefana Yes I realize BC is not perfect by far but the "it failed" claim is used way out of proportion to reality.
@Love Because a rape caused pregnancy is through no fault of the woman as well as the child and it is unreasonable to require the woman to carry and then raise the child against their will.
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@Love I see it as a tragedy to not have a life come to full term and there are resources/people out there that do want to adopt these children. I have a SIL that went through an adoption program with 3 children and the families that wanted her child took care of her and all that entailed. (e.g. food, housing, bills, even some recreational money, etc) From what I have heard there are plenty of people that can't have children and are waiting for a child to adopt and that they have to wait a long time. Luckily there are some companies that have made it possible to quicken the process although its a pricey option.
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@CollegeMom: maybe they're "liking" and hitting the lol by accident? Though I did laugh at the one I referenced in an earlier post...sorry, can't quite remember but the gist was my reckless abandoment comment...Bite me, cupcake!
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domineaux said:
it is unreasonable to require the woman to carry and then raise the child against their will.
Why?Why is it unreasonable for THIS woman, and not some other woman?because of the circumstances of conception???Why is it ok for THIS child to die, and not the others?It's still a life.And I thought that was the point of being pro-life.Maybe I'm just not understanding the distinction here. Can you elaborate? -
@Collegemom
I am all for those with religious objections not being forced to provide/support something that is against their morals...should that not be up to them to choose?
Also the issue of pharmacists who refuse to provide BC has been around a long time for example:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,644153,00.html
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@domineaux: bc failure is far higher than you think, I ran a migraine study once where we had at least 5 women get pregnant. All participants in the study had to be using double barrier or better forms of contraception. condoms have a 14% failure rate, and that's if they're used correctly. The only form of contraception that is 100% is abstinence, and while I'm all for that if you don't want to get pregnant, it's not realistic.Bite me, cupcake!
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here's the citation, and these figures are assuming that the particular form IS used correctly, as directed.
http://www.americanpregnancy.org/preventingpregnancy/birthcontrolfailure.html
Bite me, cupcake! -
@BellaBefana Not likely, as it was done on five or six comments, and not only on mine, but in some other totally inappropriate places. It is just sad that instead of coming out and debating that someone finds the need to be snarky.
@domineaux I have not seen that journal, and I thank you for sharing the link. I have had a look at the first few pages, it seems to be refuting the one I cited, I will certainly take the time to read through it and consider the data. -
The life is still precious but it was not brought about through the actions of the woman.
So the life of this child is less precious than another baby, because it was done against its mother's will, so it's ok to kill it...?I'm just trying to understand this train of thought. -
You can't have it both ways, @koala82, @redmomma, @domineaux. The Catholic hospital where my daughter was born was recently excommunicated for performing a medically necessary abortion to save the mother. If you are against abortion, you are against it always.Love said:JUST a question:You have all three stated that it's acceptable for an abortion in a rape scenario.And you have also all stated that the killing of unborn children is unacceptable. "Defending an innocent life" one of you said.Why is one innocent unborn baby/fetus more or less worthy of defense than another?I'm asking honestly.IF your position is that abortion is wrong, because the child/fetus 's life is forfeit through no fault of its own, then why does the rape scenario get a pass?
Bite me, cupcake! -
@domineaux So it is important for those who have religious objections to be able to choose, but for those of us who don't, our right to choose is not important, since it goes against someone else's morals? It also seems hypocritical to me that if you would wish to end the need for abortions, that you would not support having BC as accessible as possible to everyone? What about the woman who lives in a small town with one pharmacy which won't dispense her BC? What about the mother of three with a disabled husband who has no choice but to work at the cafeteria in a catholic university?
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@BellaBefana Depo-Provera Injection seems to have a pretty low failure rate...add condoms (male or female) and the unintended pregnancy rate would be dramatically lowered.
As for abstinence, it is only not realistic because of exactly what I have mentioned previously, irresponsible behavior and moral decline of society. While teen pregnancy was still an issue before legalized abortions, it was a lot less common back when the women knew that there were consequences.
@Collegemom
I highly respect John Lott for his work on "guns and crime" studies so hope you will not discount his findings.
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@Laurie, if you will re-read my posts, all you will find is me asking questions.No one is calling any names here, there has been no snark, and no harsh words.Merely a pretty well-behaved conversation.And I have stated no side. I am asking questions meant to delve the depths of comments already submitted.
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I think everyone is being properly respectful @Laurie. In fact, it drives me crazy when debates are shut down even when everyone is adhering to the COC as we are in this conversation. And why shouldn't a mod join in the debate as well? They are also members of these forums and have the right to contribute to these discussions.
Whether I agree or disagree with you, I commend all for your respect and thoughtful comments! -
not every one can take depo-provera, and it's contraindicated for many women...Bite me, cupcake!
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@LaurieI see what you're saying, but imo everyone has been incredibly respectful (which is unusual for this topic). As long as it doesn't violate the CoC it will remain open.However, I do agree with you on this: No one is going to change anyone else's minds, if you find yourself circling the same arguments it might be time to walk away. (Not addressed at anyone, in fact I think both sides are presenting some incredibly informative viewpoints).And last point, moderators have opinions too, and we are allowed to express them, but like everyone else we need to follow the CoC.
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I wasn't aware that mods were not allowed to have opinions.
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@domineaux, I am always open to reading research, and considering opinions! I will let you know what I think of it once I have had the chance to read it properly with the attention it deserves.
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Well, ladies, it's been real, but I'm having a very RARE dd-free night, and I've just re-started Missing about 4 times, so...I'm off to watch Missing, then hit the sheets with my book.
Early night for this pooped out mama!
Bite me, cupcake! -
@Love @BellaBefana Extenuating circumstance are a fact of life and should be taken into account. I am not against abortion for religious reasons, but moral reasons. While it would be great if no life was ever lost to abortion, purely elective abortions are different and what I am not in favor of.
@Collegemom Haven't you heard, "your rights end where mine begin". I am all for BC but do not feel someone's religious beliefs should be stomped on out of convenience. There is really not ever a likely situation in the US where a woman would be denied the ability to have BC because a pharmacist refuses to provide it. They can have a different pharmacist handle that customer, or if that is somehow not possible, it can be online or mail ordered. The rare occurrence where a pharmacist would not even transfer the prescription to another pharmacy upon request however should be punished.
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And what is wrong with stirring the pot? Should we not discuss these types of issues? It is untrue that no one will ever change anyone's mind. Maybe we won't tonight, but minds are changed and socieities evolve through intelligent and rational debates, such as the one we are conducting right now. I have been presented with an interesting article which may well change my mind on a certain aspect of my argument. Is it wrong to enjoy debating? If you don't like the debate @Laurie, you are free to stop following the thread. The fact that someone less circumspect may join in a bit later should not stop the rest of us from continuing our discussion right now.
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Let's not accuse anyone of anything. I think the discussion is going well considering its such a passionate subject.
"What looks like torture is a time to rejoice
What sounds like thunder is a comforting voice
When what is beautiful looks broken and crushed
And I say I don't know you
But you say it's finished" -
@Love
As a person who was put in that position by my own mothers husband, I believe that if I had become pregnant, I would have been even more emotionally damaged by the physical scars of motherhood to constantly remind me of the rape, having to explain to future partners who would see the physical evidence of pregnancy what had happened, and having to see the child who would have been fathered by my mothers husband. Now, that being said, I still believe there should be legal guidelines for this scenario as well, such as the rape being reported to police, a follow up pregnancy test regarding all rape claims, and if the woman chooses to abort the pregnancy, it must be done ASAP, preferably not after the 1st trimester.
To all- Let's not forget when discussing abortion, that not all abortions are performed when the child is a "clump of cells" MOST abortions are performed when there is a heartbeat, and when parts of little arms and legs can be put on a table. That is what I take issue with the most.
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@domineaux Exactly! Your rights end where mine begin. Turn that around and apply it to the pro-choice debate. My body, my rights, yours end there. Well, not YOURS specifically, but you know what I mean. Except violating your right to choose not to provide BC would only mean that I would be doing something you don't approve of, and ultimately have no affect on you whatsoever, except perhaps a minor "sin" (which is a concept I personally do not believe in) whereas violating my right to choose abortion would result in no consequence to yourself, and a very serious consequence to myself.
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@domineaux Why not start a thread? I am always interested in a good debate! For the record, I am pro gun control :) Cheers, sleep well!! >:D<
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@redmomma
Over 88% of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Over half of all abortions in the U.S. occur within the first 8 weeks of pregnancy. 6.7% occur between 13 and 15 weeks, 3.5% occur between 16 and 20 weeks, and 1.1% of abortions occur at 21 weeks or greater.
http://www.womenscenter.com/abortion_stats.html -
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Laurie said:
But this is one of the discussions that can not be won and no one will be changing their minds. All thats going to happen is more hate.
Focusing on just this part of the statement, I'd like to say this isn't exactly true.Many, MANY people have had their opinions not only formed, but swayed, by rational, intelligent, conversation, and the exchange of information, opinions, and life experiences.It doesn't happen every time, but it CAN happen.I've seen it. -
@redmomma http://www.ts.mu.edu/content/31/31.1/31.1.1.pdf
A fetus has recognizable fingers and toes by eight weeks, however, that is not what defines a human. Brain structure is not completed until 12 weeks. 20 weeks is where the question of viability begins. 10% of babies born between 20-28 weeks survive. A fetus is not viable on its own before that date. IMO it is preferable not to do it at all, but if you should choose, before twelve weeks is preferable, and it should only be done after 20 weeks for medical reasons. -
@Love I wouldn't want to live in a world where it was otherwise! That is what is so great about man, the thinking, reasoning, rational animal!
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**searching for a facepalm emoticon**
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@FirstTimeMommy @Chocoholic covered many topics within her opening post, thus opening up the opportunity for dialogue on the topic of abortion as well as the terms used to describe the two sides. The OP of the thread has also addressed some of the comments that you may view "off topic," thus making me of the opinion that she is okay with the conversation happening within this thread.
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CanadianMama said:
@FirstTimeMommy @Chocoholic covered many topics within her opening post, thus opening up the opportunity for dialogue on the topic of abortion as well as the terms used to describe the two sides. The OP of the thread has also addressed some of the comments that you may view "off topic," thus making me of the opinion that she is okay with the conversation happening within this thread.
Yay!
<:-P -
I am pro- choice, although I am not sure I could ever have had an abortion myself especially after having my two kids. I don't think that I have the right to make that choice for someone else even if it is against my religion(Catholic) or my morals.What worries me, is not whether someone chooses to have an abortion, but when and how that abortion is performed. Before 12 weeks ok, 12-20 weeks maybe if medically required or due to genetic defects being found, after 22+ weeks I'm against abortions at this time as that fetus could possibly survive if born premature.If abortion is once again criminalized or made so stigmitized that it is impossible to find a doctor to perform one - well that puts us all at the mercy of the quacks with the knitting needles again. In a secular society, it is a procedure that must be offered in order to protect the health of women. If not, the incidence of infections, sterilizations and deaths of women who seek out an illegal, unmonitored abortions will be what is was before Roe vs Wade.If abortion is once again criminalized, it will be a right of the rich woman to travel to where she can get an abortion leaving the poor woman to the quack in the back alley.The wealthy of a society always find more options than the poor. So then class distinctions will come into play about health - poor women will have unwanted, unloved children they cannot provide for which does society absolutely no good and costs much in the way of social costs.Despite anyone's personal feelings about abortion, it is so much better for society in many ways for this to be a service provided in the health care system.
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Just to be clear, my conversation was really just to open up a forum for women to discuss their feeling both about the terminology around abortion, and whatever else was on their mind. I am I impressed with the civil discourse I woke up to read this morning, and really appreciate all the thoughts and input all the posters have had.
I completely agree @canadamom - when abortion was illegal it was yet another way social stratification becomes extremely obvious as the wealthy are always able to get access to services the poor are not, which leads to an ever more unbalanced society. -
I came in late to this one, but maybe that's ok c;
I used to be pro life to a point that my sister lied to me about a miscarriage/abortion when she was 17 and I was 18. I had the resources, knowledge, and smarts to protect myself from early pregnancy and I thought it was everyone's responsibility to do the same. I kept this view point until around 1 year ago when I read misconception and inconceivable, two books based on a true story of a medical mishap. It opened my eyes to grey areas, not everything is black and white, especially life changing events. Now I consider myself pro life in my relationship and pro choice for everyone else c:
the truth has arrived...
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From the Confessional
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dh is an asshole sometimes but I'd never cheat on his stupid ass, he empties the dishwasher. Worst Job In The Entire World.
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I could have an somewhat easier life if I leave my H for a different guy I know. He also wants to marry me and me have his baby. Ugh too bad he's a little late on the new he told me. Lol. But I do love him and my kids :)
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I just had to wax my stomach. What the hell did pregnancy do to me?!
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Made an ass of myself at gyn today. She's like "I'm going to use small speculum so you're comfortable". I'm like "so how do u announce when someone needs the big one??" She's like "We don't joke about that". Oops.
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