Jill Smokler, AKA Scary Mommy
@scarymommy
Latest posts by Jill Smokler, AKA Scary Mommy (see all)
- The Disney Reveal - May 14, 2013
- Met My Match At Disney… - May 13, 2013
- Sunday’s Baltimore Sun - May 11, 2013
You know that dialogue in When Harry Met Sally about whether or not men and women can ever really be friends? Here it is, in case (unlike me) you don’t have the entire movie memorized…
- Harry: You realize of course that we could never be friends.
- Sally: Why not?
- Harry: What I’m saying is — and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form — is that men and women can’t be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
- Sally: That’s not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
- Harry: No you don’t.
- Sally: Yes I do.
- Harry: No you don’t.
- Sally: Yes I do.
- Harry: You only think you do.
- Sally: You say I’m having sex with these men without my knowledge?
- Harry: No, what I’m saying is they all want to have sex with you.
- Sally: They do not.
- Harry: Do too.
- Sally: They do not.
- Harry: Do too.
- Sally: How do you know?
- Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
- Sally: So you’re saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
- Harry: No, you pretty much want to nail ‘em too.
- Sally: What if they don’t want to have sex with you?
- Harry: Doesn’t matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.
- Sally: Well, I guess we’re not going to be friends then.
- Harry: Guess not.
- Sally: That’s too bad. You were the only person that I knew in New York.
- .
God, I love that movie. But, back to my point…
I don’t believe this argument to be true. I think male/female relationships can exist without the least bit of sexual complication entering the picture. I really, truly do. Or, at least, based on the number of close female friends my husband has, I sure as hell hope so.
I do, however, wonder about another type of friendship: The mother and the non-mother.
It’s easy being friends with fellow moms. There are no hurt feelings when a phone call abruptly ends and you forget to re-dial for three days. There is no dry-heaving when you describe, in great detail, what your child just puked up and changing a diaper mid-conversation isn’t notable in the least. You aren’t offended by the chaos on the other end of the line, because it echos the chaos in your own household. It’s welcome, because for a change, it isn’t yours.
Non mommy friends, on the other hand, aren’t always so accepting. I find myself calling single girlfriends while in the car after school drop-off or hiding out in the bathroom, so we’re not interrupted with pleas for snacks or ass-wiping. I’ve been hung up on because I sounded “distracted” on the phone and wasn’t appearing to focus my full attention on the call. But, isn’t “distracted” a defining characteristic for a mother? Do we ever actually have the luxury of focusing 100% on a phone call?
Even if a non-mom doesn’t vocalize it, is she forever resentful not to be number one anymore? It’s not so easy to jet off for a visit anymore or meet for dinner and drinks when a sitter cancels at the last minute. As much as you love your friends, once you have kids, they take second fiddle. They just have to.
Of course a mother and a non-mother can be friends. Some of my dearest friends don’t have kids and I love them just as much as I did before. But, I wonder, if like Harry says about sex, the kid thing eventually gets in the way and messes things all up?
I’m not sure…
What about you?
{ 196 comments… read them below or add one }
I’ve had that happen before with non mom friends. I once heard “So now that you have started this baby thing does this mean I have to babysit your offspring?” Ummm no….
Oh, this pulls me in so many different directions. In the end, I feel like I’m being judged (and pitied) by my mom friends more often than I’m judging them.
You can be friends, of course, but I have drifted apart from most of my non-mom friends over the past two years since I’ve had a child. The truth is, I have very little time without my daughter, and that time is normally reserved for my husband. This means that if friends want to see me, they generally have to see the Bug too. Guess what? Non-mom friends don’t usually want to hang out with a kid in tow. We do our best, but our lives and schedules are just too different.
NoDramaMama recently posted..And Now Back to Our Regular Schedule
“We do our best, but our lives and schedules are just too different.” Very well put.
I wanted to add that most mom-friends I know, myself included, don’t just cut people out. But the time I spend with my non-mom friends went from once or twice a week to three or four times a year.
NoDramaMama recently posted..And Now Back to Our Regular Schedule
I love the way you put this. It’s hard for non-mom friends, especially single ones, to understand that I need to spend time with my daughter and my husband. There’s just not enough time and it’s important for me to connect with my own family first.
Beth recently posted..Lost and Found
In a word? No. Sad, but in my experience, true.
Here’s the real question though, if you have a non-mom friend who can’t get over having to compete with YOUR BABY, do you want that friend in your life? Because to me it sounds like a pretty toxic situation.
In the absence of being supportive of my life choices, I believe that the relationship will become toxic and not worth my precious time.
See, I knew this was coming, so I very wisely cut off all my friends before I had kids, through a seriously gutting, heart wrenching series of conversations where I learned a lot of them weren’t actually my friends after all. THEN, when I had my kids, I got to make all NEW friends, who all have kids! I’m a genius. This proves it.
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Smart! If they can “handle” your life, they don’t deserve to have you in theirs.
Did you keep ANY of the old friends? Sounds rather drastic if you ask me. A true friend would “put up with” your having kids and still be a friend. I could never cut off my relationships with my non-parent friends.
Odd Dad recently posted..Cold northern darkness
Moms & nonmoms can’t be friends, as someone else put it “we have diff priorities” & please don’t start the dad bs! Dads still stay friends w their non dad friends…guys have a diff set of priorities all together. Most dads I know go out & hold onto their prekid interests and hobbies without a 2nd thought….wait a sec! Maybe dads have it all right. No wonder dads are far more sane than us mommies
I love you. I think women should not abandon non mom friends, I don’t think that’s really mentally healthy. Maybe your non mom friend doesn’t want to worry about swearing, etc around your kid? Let your husband watch them and let your hair down.
I can only assume you are kidding.
If you are not:
How sad you are. You only want friends that are like you? I feel bad for you. Your ideal world is one in which everyone is exactly like you? How boring.
So when you decide to have two children do get rid of the friends that have decided to only have one?
When you decide to buy a mini-van , do you decide to get rid of all the friends that decide to have a sedan?
Do all your friends have the education level you do? State schools only! Ivy league only!
Are you white and catholic and shun the idea of having friends of different ethnic backgrounds and beliefs?
A genius? Not in my book.
It’s hard. With kids, your whole focus alters and friendships can’t be what they were. My BFF ditched me after my 2nd was born and I miss her almost daily.
Same here. It’s a drag.
It did for me! As soon as I found out I was pregnant, my best friend began distancing herself. We used to have lunch multiple times a week, and go shopping on the days that we weren’t having lunch. During my pregnancy, we hung out a handful of times, and then it took her months to come see my baby after he was born. She stopped returning calls and texts, and when I tried to make plans with her she was always “too tired” (sidenote, I HATE when non-moms complain about being tired), but then the following day I would see posts on Facebook about where she went last night and who she was with. It was all very hurtful, but I hung onto hope for years that things would go back to normal. Then this year she scheduled a vacation the weekend of my birthday with other people. It may seem like a little thing, but it was the first birthday that she had missed since we met 9 years ago. It was the final straw, and I have given up hope now of ever reconciling our friendship. It’s really sad because she was the best friend that I had ever had, and I really just don’t understand why me becoming a mom had to end our friendship.
Elle @elletheheiress recently posted..Refocusing
That’s so sad. Sounds like jealousy to me, which is so petty. Why can’t people just be nice?
Odd Dad recently posted..Cold northern darkness
But, can moms really generalize the tiredness of a non-mom? I mean, there are plenty of women without children who lead extremely demanding lives, so to say that you hate when they complain about being tired…I don’t know, that seems a bit drastic. What if she is a doctor? A lawyer? A pilot? Even a party girl. Or a student. Shouldn’t matter. What she’s tired from, to me, doesn’t make her kind of tired any less tiresome than a mom being tired from being a mom. You were up all night with a sick kid. She was up all night writing a brief for court. Tired is tired. (Or did I read too much into your “hate”?)
Arnebya recently posted..Writer’s Workshop: Mah Firstest Baby
The non-mom that I hear it most often from has no reason to always be complain of being tired. She has no significant other, lives alone, doesn’t date, doesn’t party, and she has a relatively easy day job. Yet she is constantly complaining about being tired. We’re also both 23, so it isn’t like we’re middle-aged and not as active as we used to be.
Elle @elletheheiress recently posted..Refocusing
I’m sorry, but do you realize how that sounds? You are taking a look at what you know about her life and deciding she has no reason to be tired. There are SO MANY reasons why she might be tired, and yet you have decided there is no way any of them are more important your reason, your child. I would never, ever attempt to tell a friend with a child that they were not as tired as me after spending 2 weeks sleeping in my office under my desk for a few hours every night….but chances are they got more sleep than me. You can be annoyed that your friend always cops out to being tired, but I think they label of her being a non-Mom (or being a Mom) should be left out of it. Your original statement was horribly offensive to me, as a non Mom who sometimes is tired.
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Amen, Daisy! :)
Ditto Emmy! Elle: maybe your definition of an “easy day job” and hers differ. As some moms definition of “easy children” differ.
Agreed! How arrogant and offensive to assume you understand someone else’s tiredness??!! That is so asinine. Comments like these make it clear why some non-moms choose to stay away from moms who act this way.
A Morning Grouch recently posted..Sleep Deprivation Can Make You Do Stupid Things. Or, Maybe I Have ADD.
If I understand the purpose of this site correctly it Is a place where we can vent and maybe even say things we wouldn’t usually say without fear of judgement. So right on! I never knew the meaning of tired before I had my children! And I bet most non-moms realize the same thing when they have kids too!
I think her point was that she has many responsibilities and reasons why she’s tired and her non-mom friends has fewer responsibilities to make her take something like sleeplessness and says she’s tired.
Everyone can be tired, but being a parent, you don’t have time to be tired sometimes because you have to keep on, keeping on regardless of how you feel because you have to take care of your children.
I don’t agree with your reasoning (and does anyone else think it is a little weird we are all hashing out what someone else might or might not have meant……) It insinuates that non-parents have fewer responsiblitie by virtue of not being a parent. Yes, parenting is a HUGE responsiblity, that goes on for forever with no breaks. But my friend with no children who takes care of HER parents has the same always-pressing responsiblity. My friends who are doctors in emergency rooms and with high risk patients, they have a pretty overwhelming level of responsiblity.My friends who are lawyers to the indigent, to the children who are wards of the state, to people trying to sort out immigration battles…they have a pretty intense level of responsibility. Are those responsibilities the same as those of parenting? No, they are not. However, they are still responsibility, one that exhuasts people to their core. I’m never, ever going to argue with a parent who says they are tired and blames it on the never ending care they provide their child. But I’m also not going to accept someone telling me that because my responsibilities are different I don’t understand being tired. To place “parental exhaustion” above all others is self-aggrandizing and narcissistic, especially when you dismiss other’s claims of being tired as they “simply don’t understand.”
Let’s just say being a parent is a totally different “kind” of tired than that of any salary paid job. I can’t explain it any better than that.
When I was younger and worked 60+ hours a week it was exhausting but nothing like mommyhood. I think it was because even after a heavy load at work everyday, I could still go home at night and completely relax once my head it the pillow and now I haven’t had that kind of carefree sleep in literally years.
I just think you all must have too much time on your hands if you can spend all your time arguing about a jokey comment on here!
I have a four-year-old, and my closest friends are all without kids. I read people well (I’m a photographer, what do you expect?), and I am cognizant of what makes for good conversation. I am me first, a career person, and, yes, a mom, but “mom” is happily not my only title.
When I talk with friends, they don’t want to hear about my mom life completely, although they usually inquire about my awesome kiddo. I also want to hear about them and catch up. I want to release the stress and have fun. I don’t want to be harassed about when he’s starting preschool or why he still carries a blankie. That’s usually on my mind anyway without the prodding of the outside world. Let’s grab some wine and unwind!
It’s like when someone is getting married, and they can only talk about the upcoming wedding- blech!
:) Cheers!
I may be reaching here, but what you described could also be the life of someone with depression, which I know from experience can make you very, very tired for what would appear to others to be “no reason”. Maybe you aren’t the only person this former friend has distanced herself from. Maybe she is having personal issues that have nothing really to do with you at all and what she may need is a friend that she can reach out to.
meant to reply to Elle there, not Saundra
I think the main point there is the woman wasn’t tired. She posted online that she went out the same night she was supposidly “tired” Yes she could have been tired from other sources but in this case it was an excuse.
That was exactly my point, Vicki.
I was not trying to say that non-moms don’t have a right to be tired, but I do think that after you become a mom your idea of tired changes drastically. It isn’t just being sleepy or losing sleep, it’s the overall physical and mental draining that happens from parenting. In my life, I have never experienced anything that is as draining & tiring than parenting.
I absolutely did not mean to offend anyone with my comments, and you all certainly have a right to your opinions just as I do to mine. Obviously we have different opinions on the subject.
Elle @elletheheiress recently posted..Hello, from Hell!
Vicki, I think the point I’m making is that the friend’s excuses have nothing to do with her being a Mom or not being a Mom. People who lie about being tired and then go out with other friends are just people that suck. Inserting a comment about “hating non-mom’s who complain about being tired” is what I find inappropriate, not the initial frustration Elle’s friend turned into a flake and used a dumb excuse to get out of plans.
Just to comment on your side note- non parents are NEVER allowed to complain that they are tired! They don’t know the meaning of the word.
Beth recently posted..Lost and Found
Lol, I should have read through all the comments before I jumped on this bandwagon. Not meant to be offensive or disrespect someone else’s feelings, just that I myself did not know how tired I could possibly be until after I had a child.
Beth recently posted..Lost and Found
My best friend in the world doesn’t have children, and our friendship has only gotten better since I had my daughter. That being said, I can’t even begin to recount the friends and acquaintances that have mysteriously “vanished” over the last 15 months. Which is fine by me, as I am just as disinterested in their singleton shenanigans as they are in my mommy world.
I think if both parties are aware that the dynamic of the friendship is going to change DRASTICALLY once one of you has children, then you can definitely make it work. Having a baby has (I think) made me a better friend, because it forces you to slow down and listen and embrace patience and empathy. And when you have a friend with kids, well, it’s like a free crash course in babies, which is invaluable later on down the line!
Jayme recently posted..Quiet (NaBloPoMo, Day #29)
For me, the exact opposite it true.
I don’t have a single close mommy friend. All my close friends are kidless and they almost completely understand. The invites out have mostly stopped (which is annoying) but they don’t care if I don’t call them for a week or if I missed half of their work/bar/whatever story because one of my kids fell off something/into something/whatever. And they are the only people I can count on to baby sit.
When I have tried to make mommy friends, it just turns into a competition or a very unthrilling game of compare and contrast (AKA Know how I know you suck as a mother?)
But I’m also of the “men and women can totally be friends” camp so I’m probably just crazy.
Rebecca recently posted..Wordless Wednesday
Nope, I’m part of that camp too. Also, I HATE when the go out invites stop. WTF My baby makes me unable to enjoy a drink or five, unable to dance, unable to want to escape the noise that is my house? Yes, I will most likely decline because you call and ask me two hours before you’re leaving but damn at least give me the opportunity to decline.
Arnebya recently posted..Writer’s Workshop: Mah Firstest Baby
I do believe that our friendships change because interests now vary and time is spent on different priorities. That is such a tough one.
Also, I love that movie. xo
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I agree…it gets in the way. My older sister (my friend too) has no children and everytime she calls one of my 3 fockers are up to something. Its not so much she doesnt understand my abrupt hang-ups or yelling in her ear directing towards a focker but more of the “the grass is greener on the other side” thing. I wish I can go out to dinner every night with friends while she would do anything to be running to wipe someones ass.
I use Facebook to my fullest ability in this area. I have quite a few non-mom and non-dad friends, granted most of them have neices and nephews so they are not as nearly far removed from the situation. But they know life is busy with a little one. Before we had our son life was just a busy, only in other ways (work mostly). So getting phone calls back 3 days after the fact was common, but common amongst all of us, not just the ones with kids.
Now I just tell everyone to text or FB me. It’s easier and they’re more likely to hear from me in a timely fashion, sane for my husband. And honestly the friends who would have been weird about hanging out with us and child kinda faded out of the picture by the time we got married. If anything changed it was after our marriage more than after our son was born.
I looove my single girlfriends!! One loves my 3 lil darlings to death & is totally understanding. Another seems absolutely annoyed w/ my kids at all times, tho she claims she loves them. Funny thing is… they’re both teachers. I also have a gf who has a child. She (unlike my single friends) doesn’t understand why I cancel last minute when my 2yr old throws a huge temper tantrum. She actually gets angry when I change plans b/c of my children. My children are complete angels compared to her kid!! How can she not understand?? I cannot stand going anywhere in public with her b/c her son is a complete embarrassment. Seriously, take that kid in the bathroom & teach him “we don’t act like that in public”!! I would go crazy w/o my single friends!!
It depends on the friend, but I’ve fallen out of touch with most of my non-mom friends since having my child. In particular, I had one close (or so I thought friend), who once I became pregnant never called or emailed to see how I was feeling. And once I had my child, she visited the obligatory one time to see the baby, and I’ve since only seen her 2 times in nearly 18 months – and we live only 20 minutes apart. At first I tried to keep the relationship going, but then I realized our priorities and outlooks on life are just so different, that I’m not sure I even really need a friend like her in my life. NoDramaMama put it best, IMO. My mom friends are the only ones who have empathy when I haven’t slept more than 3 hours in a row in a week or when I’m just too tired to go out. And the little time I do have baby-free, I choose to spend with my husband.
You know, when I was pregnant with my 2nd kiddo, I had a good girl friend dump me. She emailed me out of the blue and told me that she didn’t want to be friends with me anymore because I never made time for her. I was crushed – really heartbroken. And then REALLY REALLY pissed. So honestly, I don’t think moms and non-moms can be friends the same way they used to be. Especially if pre-kid you were a party all night, drive to Mexico on the spur of the moment, snorting coke off a hooker’s ass kind of girl, and your friends still are.
Thinking about it, I don’t have any non-mom friends left! Except superficial friend-of-a-friend friends.
I have 3 years left of being this kind of girl. Then off to getting married and having babies :(
I can completely identify with this! I just had my first baby 2 months ago and my very best friend lives a state away. Our relationship has gone from talking/texting 2-3 times a day to maybe a text every two days. I know she’s so hurt but she doesn’t understand the shift of focus. Especially as a new mom, I can’t do four things at once and that fourth task is often talking to her or replying to a text. It makes me so sad!
Amber recently posted..Macy’s Thanksiving Day Parade
Friendships are always evolving. Sometimes it’s a baby that changes the situation, sometime’s it’s a demanding work project, sometimes caring for an ailing parent or sometimes even change in geographic location. For me it’s not so much a have vs. have-not but rather a question of is the friendship allowing for both to grow together.
This is beautifully put, and I couldn’t agree more.
Anne recently posted..Contests, Giveaways and Sweepstakes, oh my!
Yes, absolutely true.
I agree with this–well said. I disagree with other posters who seem to suggest that moms and non-moms can’t be friends because non-moms just don’t get it. There are a lot of empathetic non-moms out there–I like to think I used to be one of them. I’m glad my mom friends didn’t ditch me when I was a non-mom. Let’s just help our non-mom friends understand without judging them or overgeneralizing.
Eloquent truth.
Lollie @FortuitousHousewife recently posted..Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me!
This is a hard one. I love my ‘non mommy’ friends so much and I look forward to the day they start thier families, however, sometimes it’s really hard to nurture friendships with them when you have three children and a husband to take care of. Even when ‘non mommy’ friends say they love your kids, or bring them along, you know it’s just to be nice and it’s challenging to schedule outings without them. Unfortunately, most Mommy/Non-mommy close friendships are eventually doomed to fail, but it doesn’t mean you can have a distant relationship with them.
One of my very good friends was a nonmom up until recently.
We talked about other things besides kids because there are other things to talk about. Now she will get what I talk about when I mentioned the adventures of my kids though!
I think it matter more who the person is than whether or not they have kids. I don’t have kids, but I have a lot of friends who do. It doesn’t bother me that they’re always busy and distracted, because I am too. I may not have kids, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have a whole lot going on. More often than not, I can’t drop everything and meet up for coffee either. But I can send random and hilarious text messages throughout the day. Maybe it’s just me, but I almost prefer the short, spontaneous online communications. I hate talking on the phone, and all of my friends know that if they call me, I probably won’t answer. But tweet me and you’ll get a nearly immediate response.
In the end, I think shared interests and a good personality match matter more than mom/non-mom. I mean, I expect to lose contact with friends immediately after they’ve had a baby. That’s a crazy time, and I get that. But once kids are older, I really don’t see how it’s all that different from having a friend with a crazy job or sick family member, or who’s going back to school, or doing any number of other time consuming things. You can’t spend hours upon hours gabbing like you did in high school, but that’s kind of the harsh reality of grown up friendships.
Anne recently posted..Contests, Giveaways and Sweepstakes, oh my!
I’m childless. My best friend has 3 under age 4, including a set of twins. We make it work. How? I understand she is their primary care giver and don’t feel the need to compete for her attention; I am an adult. She understands my life has continued without kids and doesn’t give me shit about complaining when I’m tired.
I think yes you can still be friends, however I do have the luxury of every other weekend I do not have my daughter, I am just me those 4 days a month, and can spend time with my non mom friends with undivided attention. However!!! When I do not have my daughter I don’t want to spend time with my other mom friends because I am getting a break from the whole mommy thing to just be me. Selfish I know and acknowledge this, but true it is. Even if you are a mom you still need non mom time to just be you with no title. Take the time to enjoy your non mom time as well as the mom time.
i feel like sometimes it may be just as hard to have a mommy friend if that mommy has children the same ages/age as your own. especially when the other child/ren don’t listen and are rude and mean to your own children.
completely agree. i had my daughter at 17 and even though i grew up and matured so fast because of her, i didnt realize my high school friends weren’t on the same level. when they would call or text, i would just talk about all the new stuff my daughter was doing or what i had plans for my renovating our house or how my realtionship was and all they cared about was gossiping and asking when i could go out. when i kept saying no, they finally just stopped calling and asking. i dont really think moms and non-moms can truly have a long lasting relationship because yes, the kids will always get in the way.
I was sort of a friendless freak anyway, prior to marriage and kids. I have always been the type to find one friend and cling on for dear life, then something happens and life gets between us and I drift for a while before finding a new bestie.
So when I had a baby and things between my single bestie and I started to change, I wasn’t as devastated. We’re still in touch. And she definitely is AMAZING with my son, but the invites to events that start at 10PM and include drinking and partying (less now that I’m pregnant again) are just not feasible for me. so we chat on facebook or through text and that’s about it.
But my new bestie has a son almost the same age as mine and a daughter a little bit older. It’s perfect! I can pick her brain about parenting and our kids can learn and play together. When we go two weeks without seeing each other we both start getting edgy and need a catch up!
Oh man, I have so many things to say about this post, but I am going to try to focus for a change. I think the secondary discussion point is can a mom and non-mom sister-in-law really get along? Your non-mom girlfriends might get a little annoyed, but if they are really good friends, then it washes in the water. They are annoyed that you are distracted. You are annoyed that they are skinny and un-inhibited. It’s fine. BUT…the non-mom sister-in-law is ugly…especially if there is a wedding in the mix. Oh, is that just me?
Lauren (@MommyBreakdown) recently posted..Potty Training Series–Part 1: How Do You Know When to Start Potty Training?
While it’s true that your priorities shift, I still think that whatever you had in common pre-kids is still there. I enjoy hearing stories from my mom-friends about their spawn. Some make me laugh so hard I almost pee my pants, and some are truly so horrific I silently pray to the birth control gods. However, your life does not end when you have kids, it just changes. Dramatically. Every topic does not have to be kid-centric. I find that most of my mom-friends have this notion that they are the only women on the planet that has a job, husband, kids, house, dog, etc., to take care of. When we do get the extremely rare opportunity to see each other, we do NOT need to talk about your children for the entire time, while our eyes glaze over and nod absentmindedly. This is a time for you to get out of “mommy mode”, and kick back, relax, and share some laughs with an old friend.
I’m a dad, so it may be different for dads. Most of the non-parent friends I have I see when I’m not with my kids, so the interruptions are less. Not that I get a lot of time without my kids, so some of these friends I don’t get to see for long periods of time. I guess I do see them less than before I had kids, now that I think about it. But, they are still my friends. Most of my closest friends have kids themselves, so I understand your sentiment about not returning phone calls and such. That stuff just rolls off my back without a second thought. I’d like to think I give my non-parent friends the same amount of slack though. I try to be a nice guy.
Odd Dad recently posted..Cold northern darkness
I think I’m in deep denial about being a mommy myself and so I continue to hang out with my “non-breeder” friends. That said, The Bean is only 5-months old and she’s still in the “look at my cute new accessory” stage and not the “if I look away for one minute she may accidentally kill herself” stage.
I see it happen with my other breeder friends though. Suddenly your dinner parties are with other parents because everyone wants to go home by 9 to get sleep. No one notices if things get knocked over or if a conversation just ends because a child, a knife and an electrical outlet walked into a bar.
I think it depends on the friend…some don’t care, some do.
MrsDzo recently posted..We Need to Talk
I am so very lucky. Up until a year ago I didn’t have a single friend who had kids (mine are 4 and 2). Mine have never stopped calling, inviting me places. As they know it’s hard to keep 2 kids occupied in a restaurant we have our monthly get togethers at someone’s house. Someone will always bring an activity for kids. I never feel left out nor do I feel as though I am missing out. Not at any stage since birth my son four yrs ago have I ever had an issue. I have never felt need to look for other mum friends or even join a mothers group as my girls were always there for me.
I am lucky and thank my lucky stars everyday.
Honestly, I’m one of the few child free women in my circle and I’ve absolutely distanced myself. I don’t want to hear about poop or lice or preschool. I still love my friends, but it’s different. Yet, I read your blog. Go figure.
From a breeder to a non-breeder, why distance yourself? Because you don’t want to hear about their lives anymore?
Butting in here. It’s not that I don’t want to hear about their lives. It’s that I have absolutely nothing to contribute to a conversations about breastfeeding, diapers, etc. My two best friends have kids (one of whom is my niece) but being in the military community where childless couples are the minority (especially at 27) it’s really hard to make friends. Moms and non moms can be friends- our priorities are different, and both have to be willing to compromise a little. My mom friends don’t invite me to Chuck E Cheese or playdates because I feel awkward being the ONLY one without kids, and I can totally understand that when their kids are sick, having a bad day, or they are just tired, that plans may fall through.
now THIS sounds like my non-mom friends! Apparently creating life = boring.
It might seem this way when your kids are young and you are totally immersed in them and in survival. However, give your kids a chance to grow and, in the meantime, don’t lose your sense of self. There will be a day when it just doesn’t matter any more.
I couldn’t disagree more. One of my very best girlfriends is single and doesn’t have kids. It has never once been even a remote issue. We are able to share a variety of experiences together and share our different perspectives with one another.
To be honest, my motherhood isn’t a big factor in most of my friendships, and the ones that it does tend to be the more superficial.
I’m envious of that. I do have friendships where it’s a complete non-factor, but some where it’s a huge one.
I am single and childless, and have many more mom friends than not. Most women my age have kids – fact of life. I really enjoy my friends kids, I do not mind chaos on the phone or in person (it cracks me up, usually), and I understand their priorities have shifted. It might help that we are all in our 30′s so going out a lot and such fell by the wayside a while ago anyway – our walks, hikes, dinners out, and hanging out are usually very kid friendly. They put up with me going on about my dog, I put up with any extra talk about diapers :) The fair trade of being friends!
Great discussion question! I think it just depends on the friend. If they are confident enough to deal with you being unavailable and distracted for a time, then sure, I think you can be friends. However I’ve also experienced some people that don’t like children and just can’t deal with being around them. After my first child I found a group of new first time mothers who became my lifeline, and some of them are still my best friends. I liken our friendship to going through war…it was only a brief time of our lives, but I know it will make us friends for life.
For me …personally, I prefer non mom friends. I was a young mom, I’m unmarried, and they seem to relate better to me despite my mom status. I am a mom first, but I’m me still too, and my mom friends have nothing in common with me, except having a child….that isn’t enough to base a friendship on.
I agree with previous posters who have said that it all depends on the two people in the friendship. It is possible for moms and non-moms to be friends, but it takes understanding, patience, and work…on BOTH sides. I was one of the last of my friends to have a kiddo, so I know all too well what it’s like to be the non-mom in a seas of mommys.
To be fair, this situation goes both ways. It’s not just that the non-moms stop calling or inviting the moms out. I had a lot of moms totally shut me out of their lives once they had a kid (before I had mine). I got a lot of “oh you wouldn’t understand” and other such statements, even when I was trying to learn/be there for them/ offer to babysit/help them. They would go on play-dates with other moms and not invite me, even though I would’ve loved to join them. Once my friends had kids, I was basically dumped before I even had a chance. Just as non-moms need to be more understanding and accomodating, moms need to at least give their childless friends a chance instead of just automatically replacing them with other mom friends the second they have their baby. I get that they have a lot in common with other moms, but I think non-mom friends can be a benefit too. They can help babysit, go out for a girl’s night, etc. They remind you that while you’re a mom, you’re also still an individual with your own interests and hobbies. I think it’s worth it to try to hang on to non-mom friendships if they remain positive.
I never would invite non-moms out for play-dates with mom friends because I was always pretty sure that they wouldn’t want to talk about our kids the ENTIRE time like I know that mommies do. I did that once and it didn’t turn out well, like I thought it would.
I guess it eventually MIGHT come between the friendship, but it certainly doesn’t have to. It depends on the non-mom’s level of understanding of the mom’s inability to give that 100%. And it depends on the mom’s ability to understand that her non-mom friends might not give a shit about leaky boobs, loaded diapers, and not peeing in peace. It’s a give and take just like mom/mom, non-mom/non-mom, mom of older kids/mom of younger kids, non-mom/mom of kids she leaves on her mother’s porch before running away to party w/the non-mom relationships.
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As a non-Mom with plenty of Mom and non-Mom friends I’m not bothered by the question posed: can Mom’s and non-Mom’s be friends…but I’m offended by some of the gross generalizations I’m reading in the comments. As a non-Mom I make an effort to invite my friends to kid-friendly things, make it clear I’m happy to spend lunch somewhere casual with a toddler, I bring meals by when friend’s have newborns, and appropriately shower all my friend’s kids with hugs, birthday gifts and nods of happiness over the latest round of baby pictures. Sure, my Mom friends and I might not be dancing in a bar at 2 am like we were a few years ago, but, spoiler alert, just becuase I don’t have kids doesn’t mean that I’ve become an insensitive time sucking jerk. If I call it isn’t to take you away from your child, it is becuase I want to say hi- and if you can’t talk, I’m not offended. I know I’ll hear from you when you have time.
And for what it is worth the statement someone wrote above that “sidenote, I hate when non-Moms complain about being tired” is one of the most offensive things I’ve ever read. I didn’t realize that having a child meant that you are the only one privy to sleepless nights. Sure, I might be up for a different reason, but sheesh, I’m still entitled to a few yawns or an early night in without it being thrown in my face that I don’t know what being tired feels like.
Daisy, will you be my friend? :)
Of course :-) I make a mean lasagna and batch of brownies, my usual “yay you had a baby, now eat some good food” meal!
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you sound awesome. How about having a little chit-chat with my non-mom friends. Talk about a group of uncompassionate bitches…yeesh.
Sign me up for the “Daisy Friend Adoption Program”!
I’m sure all your friends appreciate your understanding, support & thoughtfulness.
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I was just having this discussion with my single girlfriend. (We are both non-moms) But I have a partner and she does not. She was saying that she feels joy and sadness when a friend says they are pregnant. Happy for them but also sad because she knows the friendship will inevitably take a backseat and the threads that connect them will no longer be as important, because they just can’t be. I don’t necessarily feel that way. I find myself more forgiving of my mom-friends when they don’t respond to emails or pick up the phone. I get it. But one of my closest friends is a mother of four (all under the age of 7 and she works full time) and I’ve never felt the friendship “suffer.” If anything it has strengthened our friendship by experiencing these four little incredible beings woven into our friendship.
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No, you’re right. One of my “friends” – now I have to put the term loosely – doesn’t want to hang out because she ‘wants what I have’, so that’s cool. Whatever. No matter how you slice it, it gets weird, or fades away, or just somehow stops working. Even when you want things to work out. I’ve sort of resigned myself to it. For the most part, though, I think that’s the way it is.
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Honestly, I wish I had more female friends without kids. My husband recently said, “why don’t you go do something with one of your friends and I will watch the kid”…easier said than done. Have you ever tried to make adult-only plans with a friend who has kids. It is impossible. And even when we get together with our kids, we can barely get a word in because the kids are either fighting or whining. And people wonder why I’ve gone to so many blog conferences? To get some one-on-one time with my friends without kids.
I work in an adult filled job, but ironically, i end up talking about kids, sports, and video games with my male and female co-workers. My life is not the PTA, but it seems to be turning into it.
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–>That’s why I don’t talk on the phone to my non-Mom friends. Also, I could be ignored by my husband and son for a hour until I pick up the phone or attempt to read a magazine and they all of sudden need something RIGHT NOW.
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OMG me too! WTH?!?
I had a rude awakening when my son was born. My best friend dropped off the face of the earth, and when we did see eachother, she would insist on it being somewhere a baby is not welcome (bar, concert, movie theater,etc.). It was very hard to deal with a brand new baby, no sleep, and the end of what was once one of the most important relationships. It felt like someone had died! Now that she’s pregnant, we are getting things back on track, but we will never be as close as we used to be.
I’m still waiting on two of my friends to get preggo and pop out some kiddos so we can get back to the way things “used to be”. Can’t wait…they’ll be sooo surprised about how different things will be for them! ; ) LOL
I had a close friend who got pregnant 2 months before I too became pregnant. We were both unmarried,In our late 30′s with unplanned pregnancies. She is super-organized, me, not so much. I did everything she did because she is so thorough and I had never ever planned to have children. We were very close until our kids were 2+ years old. She had begun to find fault and cut ties with many good friends and one very eligible man because of some real or perceived slight committed against her child. We had taken a weekend condo at the beach with our kids and when we got home she called me up. I had “ruined” her whole trip by disrespecting her son and among other things I hadn’t made my child share her raisins with her son (while I was driving). He was “starving”. We have never been the same, she and I.
if she was so organized she probably should’ve brought snacks for her own “starving” kid, ya think?
I have one friend who I don’t see often because she is really demanding of my time. Any visit turns into a marathon talk rest into laaaate at night and I am ALWAYS the one to have to kick her out so i can sleep.
Well we’ve tried going to a few things since baby, and she just gives me this “you’re so unfeminist” raised eyebrow if I say I cant commit to something during nap time, or i need a place thats kid-friendly or that baby actually does rule my schedule a bit.
the thing is, during the week I am a career lady and I go out with other friends for lunch and drinks etc without any issues. it’s just that on the weekends, the kid is my life and I put her first. This friend doesnt like that.
Interesting post…Most of my longtime girlfriends happen to be non-moms (I was actually pretty sure I was destined for the non-mom track til life intervened). They have all been amazingly accepting of the changes in my life since I had kids. And these are still the women I turn to when it really matters. So many of my mom friends are connections I made through my kids-we don’t necessarily have a lot in common. Plus, I feel that often the dynamic between our kids can be a drag on the friendship. I love these ladies despite our differences but don’t feel the same bond I have with my tried and true non-parent girls!
This made me see red. Which is not good for my lurker posting abilities.
What the bloody hell????
I am a married, 47, with no kids. I have single friends/married friends, friends with kids/without kids/empty nesters, gay friends/straight friends, able bodies friends/disabled friends, etc/et al/ad nauseum.
Some of these scenarios were present when we met. Some were not. Some of these friendships stood the test of time, some did not. But if the relationship did not last it is because there was a change that one or both parties did not have the desire to work through.
You say that the your friendships with non-mommies caused you to hide out in quiet rooms or not share certain stores. Who is culpable for THAT? As for the “too distracted” or “noisy background”? Sometimes we non-kid people are sitting there worrying we are taking up too much of YOUR time. Because we know that lives and priorities change. We still want to share what we can, but we do understand that your life is more hectic now. So we “let you go”. Call less often. Don’t hear from you, either. And our distances lengthen, our shared memories fade and we chalk it up to our differences. But friends create similarities through sharing.
I an a non-mom who subscribes to a lot of Mommy Blogs. Why? You are AWESOME women. You have strengths that I want to emulate. I know I sound lame when I complain about being tired when I have only myself and hubby to care for. But I still am tired. MY tired. And tired is just freaking tired.
But I can also relate to the joy of your baby’s first steps, the nights when you are up all night with the baby, the fear when you have to take them to the ER. And I won’t back off when you need to describe the color of poop. I may not be thrilled. But that summer we had to diagnose the rash I had was no picnic, either.
You will always have a child and will always be a mom from now until forever. But you are also still my friend. Give me a chance.
Emmy
I wish my non-mom friends were more like you.
Amen, Mac. Emmy- you sound like a fantastic friend.
I actually still hang out with my non mom friends however we make a date out of it. I dont believe in cutting off our relationship…also my non mom friends are the same as the mom friends…i can pick up were we left off a month later no judgement.
I think it depends on whether or not the friends without kids want kids or know they don’t want kids. Friends who have longed for kids and a perfect family life and are still waiting for “mr right” (fairytale nonsense) are the ones that seem to have slipped through the cracks. My childless friends who are happy without children because they get to be great aunties, then go home, they have stayed true and are right there with me. But, truth be told, there is nothing better than a mom friend, a mom with a child just about your child’s age.
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Amen to that one…
My best friend had 2 kids before I had any and I always felt like I didn’t understand her life. I still loved her just as much, but I knew I could not relate. I was never pissed when she was busy or the kids were screaming. I actually thought it was funny. But now that I have a kiddo of my own our friendship has gotten back to the days when we understand each other again. And I love it! However, my sister has 0 children and I feel like we are in different worlds. We have really grown so far apart that im not sure there is any recovery for us.
Great post. A lot of my female friends have grown-up children. It’s great. They like kids and they get kids (because they’ve been there), but they aren’t tied down with kids. As a result, they say things like, “Bring your kids to the party. We’ll just load them up with snacks and pop em in front of the TV.” And I’m the only one who does this. It’s like they have all these aunts and uncles who aren’t tired of their own kids.
I think I just babbled incoherently. Another sign of a mom… or maybe it’s just me…
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After finding out that I was pregnant with my first, my closest friend just abrubtly stopped talking to me. Period. 12 years and 5 kids later, she and I have never spoken again. I thought that I would do better with mom friends, but because I have so many very few people want to “take us all on”. So I don’t know that either mom or non-mom friends are better.
So tough – I still have non-parent friends, but it’s a few friends who happen to be amazing and adore my kids. That being said, getting together with them requires a lot of time and sitter $$ – They’re the ones generally in the city while I’m suburbia.
It’s hard, especially now that I’m home and we don’t even have the work gig in common. But friendships have seasons. The ones that are worth keeping will be around later.
I actually had a ‘non-mom’ “friend” who stopped talking to me, because I wouldn’t get a babysitter so I could go out and party with her! I was a single mom, and my children were with their father every second weekend. I couldn’t understand why I couldn’t just go out the following weekend, when the kids were with their dad!
Great point. Yes, I think it can get in the way. Especially if you have three obnoxious boys that you have lost all control over. That really freaks them out.
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I like the way you make a parallel between the mom / non-mom way this works. I offer that after all your non-mom friends go away, you even peel away your mom friends depending on whether they are SAHM or working. The shit SAHMs have to deal with everyday is completely different than the shit working moms have to go through. It’s totally apples and oranges. We all have our shit, but it’s fundamentally a different kinds of shit, so it’s hard to find common ground and be close friends. Also, I’m not sure any of us really want to have sex with each other, unless Angelina Jolie is reading this blog, and then I take it back.
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i have never married, nor have i ever had children (both by design!). i find myself here at 40 years of age with more friends that have kids than friends who don’t have children mostly because it seems that i am in the minority. they are all terrific friendships. regardless of whether kids are involved, i am blessed with intelligent, funny, generous, kind and all around amazing women in my life. the ones with kids just so happen to be raising phenomenal little people so it certainly doesn’t bother me when they are a part of our adventures. heck, sometimes i call and specifically request to have a friend and their children join me for a specific outing (science center, ice capades, baseball game, water park, etc.). my friends don’t mind if i cut a conversation short just as i don’t mind if they need to do the same. we support each other, we love each other. they were there for me when my beloved dog died unexpectedly and was devastated, i’m there for them when they are at their wits end due to a chaotic schedule. i am there for them at milestones in their or their children’s lives, they are there for me at the highs in my life. it is friendship, pure and simple.
without a doubt secure women can be friends with secure women. sounds to me like you have made friends with some insecure women or maybe aren’t as secure as you could be. (please forgive me if that sentence sounds much harsher than the sentiment in my heart. i don’t know you other than this post and don’t mean to leave a trollish comment. all i know is that i can’t imagine my life without the incredible women who are in it. it would be a shame if i drew a line saying that i could only be friends with people just exactly like me. where is the fun in that?)
you make the statement, “I don’t believe this argument to be true. I think male/female relationships can exist without the least bit of sexual complication entering the picture. I really, truly do.” and then end with the complete opposite, “I wonder, if like sex, the kid thing eventually gets in the way and messes things all up?” sounds to me like you don’t truly believe men and women can be friends, don’t think those without kids can be your friends…and makes me wonder if you have any friends who aren’t pretty much exactly like you.
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My friends and I both have kids, though they are 6 and 4 years apart. My son has a disability and as soon as I could not go out partying and shopping when they wanted, they stopped calling. One got divorced so only had her kids half of the week and the other lives with in laws so she has free child care all the time. I would always invite them over, as I couldn’t get out – husband works terrible hours, no family support and really hard to get a sitter that you can trust for a kid with a disability. Recently I stopped texting both of them as for the longest time I thought maybe they are busy as they would ignore communication. They could only both see me on their time. It got to the point where I finally realized they didn’t give a sh**! After years of listening to them whining about their terrible relationships, going out when they wanted to, being ignore and asking me nothing in return…. I finally clued in that they are not my friends. Down to one close friend now. But honestly it is family first, social life maybe.
I still have non-mom friends, although I don’t see them or talk to them as often as I’d like. But here’s a twist: the one person in my life who couldn’t seem to handle my becoming a mother was my own mom. We were close before my daughter was born, but our relationship quickly deteriorated. There were lots of reasons: she demanded more undivided attention than I could give her; she criticized my parenting and offered unsolicited, outdated advice; she hated no longer being the center of attention at family gatherings. The most damaging blow to our relationship, however, was the fact that, while she loves the idea of being a grandmother, she doesn’t really LIKE my daughter now that she’s old enough to misbehave, speak her mind, and have her own little personality. At six years old, my kid senses this and isn’t too enthusiastic about visiting my parents. And I almost never talk to my mom anymore. Sad, all around.
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I used to avoid calling my sister because it was too noisy and it upset me that she just didn’t leave them alone for a couple of minutes to talk to me in another room. Now that I’m in her shoes, I sense the other person’s impatience and think, “Just wait…”
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Most of my less than genuine friends and I made our splits after high school. Then I stopped hanging out with more when I got married as most were not even dating anyone. So those that I still hang out with are those that already had no problem hanging out with me when it wasn’t always just me either. I think the only friends who are worth hanging out with are the ones who would rather see me with my kids then not see me at all if that is all I have to give (Of course I try to go out kidless at least once a month for my own sanity’s sake). I do think it’s more of a problem on the daddy to non-daddy side then it is women as my husband’s friends almost never want to hang out with him or talk on the phone if the kids are with him….
It’s so hard – and heartbreaking. The truth is mommy’s have different things on their minds than non-mommys. Mommys (often new moms) are craving advice or someone to relate to about what they are going through – and they expect to get that from the one place they always go- their friends. But when those friends can’t relate – it can drive a wedge. Then when you feel there is something you can’t talk about, it’s awkward, because you used to talk about everything. I know I never wanted to bore my friends with my antics of my child peeing on me and knocking me out of my bad mood. At the same time they know I’m not up for going out every night, in fact I’m ready for bed shortly after my kids. BUT good friends don’t ever really leave. What I found is that the dynamic changes, and while you can’t do the same things you always did, they also help you to feel like a person again not just a mommy. PLUS when they get preggers, like two of my very best friends recently, they are so grateful for your advice and lending your ear. The truth is, it doesn’t have to be a mommy – non-mommy relationship, it can happen exactly the same with someone who is employeed vs not employeed, single vs married . . . its just different stages. The stages pass, but the true friends stick around.
Feels good to vent!
I was the first out of all my friends to have kids. Many of the friends I had back then I am not as close to as I once was. But I think it really depends on the person you are friends with.
I have one non-mom friend who I am still really close with. She is great with my kids and listens to me go on and on about them without acting like I am boring her to tears. And I make sure to ask her about her husband and about the things going on in her life. She doesn’t mind hanging out with me at my house because she understands that it is easier to keep the kids home than to go out.
I have another non-mom friend who isn’t as understanding. She doesn’t want to hang around my house to talk she wants to go out just me and her. She seems to tolerate my kids when she does see them and she doesn’t seem to interest in hearing about them. She is the friend I go out with when I know I can leave the kids with dad.
But I make the time to see both, I know which friend I can makes plans with when I have the kids and which one I can’t.
Friendships evolve and grow and I am learning, growing and evolving along with my friends.
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Ya know what I don’t see here? The “non-moms” who have tried to stay friends with their mom friends and the mom friends don’t try to make time for them!! I had a wonderful girlfriend since 4th grade. then she moved away, I traveled by bus twice a year for 4 years just to be with her on our birthdays! Then she had kids. and moved again. I never heard from her even though I would call her. Then I moved to her state, about 3 hours away, and she wouldn’t even drive to come see me becuase she has never left her children alone. I was upset, but tried to understand. Then, I got engaged and we agreed in the 6th grade to be eachothers maids of honor. I was hers, so it was her turn. She had the nerve to tell me that a year and 1/2 was not enough notice for her, so I broke up with her. It’s not always the “childless” that make it hard to be friends. And one more thing, having a child doesn’t automaically make you good at anything, except turning everything into drama and blaming everyone else for your tough life. My mother had 11 children, and she had a right to be tired. But you women with 2, 3 or four kids, give me a break. If you are gonna have kids, don’t complain about having them, save the rest of us from having to hear your own self-induced problems.
Well said!
…says the women with no children.
Yeah Lauren, that’s kinda the point of the article,right? Try again. So what exactly is YOUR point in that glaringly obvious comment??
“save the rest of us from having to hear your own self-induced problems.”
This is a website for MOMS so go to the website for LONELY BITCHES and you won’t have to hear about our “self-induced problems” or as we call them, our children.
I guess it’s different for everyone, but I honestly don’t get the situation where you lose non-parent friends because you have kids. Personally, I’ve found that just as many parent friends can fade away. I think in the end it is much less about having kids and much more about the relationship with the friend(s) in question. Kids might just be the excuse for them to back away. A good friend is a good friend no matter what is going on in your life. You make time if you can and if you can’t always see each other hopefully the understanding is there. I say if you have friends who get miffed at your differences in lifestyle now that you are a parent, ditch ‘em. Life is too short for people who are that high maintenance.
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I just watched that movie last night. I got deja vu when i read the beginning of this post! I personally don’t want to be friends with non moms. They get 8 hours of sleep a night, they never get poop in their hair and they get ‘bored’. I hate them.
Don’t worry, I wouldn’t want to be your friend either. Wouldn’t want to annoy you with the details of my “boring” life.
I love that movie too. It’s a great comparison for mother v non-mother friends. I also kinda wonder if my non-mom friends talk about me behind my back. Not necessarily in a mean way, but in a should-we-see-if-she-wants-to-come? No-she’ll-have-to-bring-her-kid-along kind of way. I definitely hold things back from non-mother friends that I do not hesitate to share with fellow moms.
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As a 30 year old single, non-mom, 95% of my friends are married, have kids or both. Yes I think and know it’s totally possible for moms to remain good friends with non-moms. If friendships fall apart it’s not because of the kids. It is because the two friends didn’t make a commitment to stay in touch or maybe didn’t have enough in common to begin with… I will admit sometimes it is frustrating that my friends who are moms don’t have as much time to just hang out with me or our other non mom friends but yet at the same time I see them making time to get together with other friends who are moms. (I guess because their kids can play together while they visit, though I’ve not ever told my friends who are moms that they couldn’t bring their kids over when they visit). On the other hand though, sometimes moms think us non moms should be available at the drop of the hat or that we live footloose and fancy free and have all this free time because we don’t have kids… I run/mange 3 business, I blog, have a house to take care of by myself and am an active volunteer in my community, plus family responsibilities (just not kids), so I have to carve out time for friends and hanging out with friends too – mommy and non mommy friends alike. :) Here’s to finding true friends that will make the relationship work no matter what! That’s what it’s all about! :)
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I have friends who are not mothers, and I find that when I make an effort to meet up (getting my son to my in-laws in between naps, making sure he’s fed etc), they cancel on me. And I go all rage-y and stuff. And feel resentful that hey, I’m the one with the kid, I’m the one who’s allowed to cancel, not you!
I know, it’s not logical or fair.
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I totally understand. And sometimes it takes several tries just to line up the babysitting. It makes me sad.
Stephanie recently posted..Anthony Wiggle is Making Eyes at Me, or My Descent into Madness After Becoming a Stay-at-Home Mom
In my experience, the kids always get in the way of friendships between moms and non-moms.
That is my favorite movie. I only ever had on guy friend pre-marriage that I would have slept with. He was hot and nothing like my boyfriend who is now my husband. Anyway, I would feel weird having a man as a friend now that I am married.
Seriously Sassy Mama recently posted..Blah Blah Blah, And I Made A Christmas Tree
I hate to sound trollish, but I think you need new friends.
I am single, never married, with no kids, no (current) partner and approaching my mid 30′s. My work “projects” are my kids and my mental and physical health are my priority. I won’t be ready to have children until I can mentally not be selfish and give 100% of myself to my family. However, 90% of my friends are either married or have children or both. And guess what? We make it work. Nothing has changed within our relationships because we find a way to give each other our time. As a matter of fact, being around their kids makes me realize more than ever that I want to be a mommy and I can watch them parent their children and learn a thing or two for when my time comes.
To be blunt – I get rid of friendships all of the time because i’ve learned the hard way that it takes two to tango. If people in your lives are not willing to give time to their relationships with you – whether you have a child or not – then the other person involved is not worthy of you. If you have a friend that bailed on you because you now have children/a husband/other major responsibilities, it’s their issue (not yours) and you don’t need them. I try my hardest to be present for any of my friends that will have me – it’s the least I can do because I feel really blessed to have them around. Kids or no kids. If we’re not friends anymore, it won’t be because their child gets in the way….to me, that’s really really selfish.
Robin recently posted..20 Years….
Most of my friends are moms. Soon, I hope to be a mom myself. I co-run a website and moms are a part of our demographic. I get it.
But I have to admit – as I’m waiting patiently on the other end of the phone while my friends discipline children that are screaming as if being murdered, I take the time to plan out my own future parenting skills.
That may, or may not include, muzzles or small closets.
anna @ HaHas for HooHas recently posted..Tis The Season of Giving
I am a non-mom and I have a great friendship with a mom friend of mine. I have another mom friend who I do NOT have a good relationship with anymore because of the kid. I’ve found that all she ever talks about is her daughter, which I get and it’s fine normally, but I don’t have any way to relate to most of the stories, so it became very one sided. She never expressed any interest in my life or even other things going on in her life aside from her daughter. I do feel like I could have put a little more effort into maintaining the relationship, and I feel guilty about it sometimes. She was a stay at home mom at the time and I imagine she felt a little lonely.
Just a little insight from a non-mom perspective. :)
My BFF is like my sister. She held my hand during my whole pregnancy. She helped cook for me while I was on bed rest and was there during labor. She helped my husband watch our daughter while I was at work and would watch her so I could take a shower. She really stepped up almost as a third parent. She is a non-mommy friend, but her friendship is invaluable!
I ask myself this question about blog friends vs. non-blog friends. :)
Seriously though, I have one really good friend that doesn’t have children and has never wanted any. I like hanging out with her because I DON’T have to talk about my kids. It is something just for me. But if I do talk about them she’s okay with that too. She’ll even come over to my house and hang out with me if I can’t get away.
Jennifer recently posted..All aboard the Polar Express…
I think the non moms have the unfair responsiblility to try and understand the mom perspective. As moms, our free time must be scheduled and rarely coincides with ladies night out. I have had friendships end because I put my daughter first. It just happens sometimes.
Amanda recently posted..100 Million Could Be Awarded To Jacksons Children
Um…of course they can. I didn’t drop my old friends. I don’t see them as much as I used to, but they forgive that because they’re my friends.
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Oh and seriously? She hung up on you because you sounded distracted? You should hang up on her the next time she sounds like a bitch.
Melinda recently posted..And now a word from our sponsor…
I have found that friendships change over time. Sometimes you grow closer. Other times, you grow apart and friendships end. That said, I have never found that childbirth has caused the demise of a relationship.
Before I had a child, I had dozens of friends who were cranking out kiddos left and right. Yes, at times it was hard to find time to hang out, but we made it work. The same as true once I had a child of my own.
The way I see it, if a friendship is important and if you truly care about someone, you stick with them no matter what. Even if at means you can’t see one another very often. Even if you have to squeeze in a conversation while their kids are running wild. That’s what you do for a friend. Anyone who can’t be bothered with your kids, doesn’t really care about you.
On e flip side, moms need to be sensitive to their non-mom friends and be able to carry on a conversation about something other than potty training or sleepless nights. Yes, your friends care about your kids, but they want to talk about other things as well.
Amy recently posted..Wordless Wednesday – Deck the Halls Edition
I lucked out and married my best friend! Although I have friends with and without kids now that mine are grown
I only have non mom friends. We have weekly chats on the phone after Aiden goes to bed. Sometimes the phone calls are late but they are so ok with that because usually they are getting ready to go out. They love hanging out with us for the day and are very realistic with how my life is now. They know I can’t always go out and party with them or go on last minute trips but they will be the first ones at my house with appies and a bottle of wine if I adult time! Being a single mom is really hard sometimes and they are my family. They are the best friends any girl could ask for.
I was very overwhelmed after Aiden was born when he was 4 weeks old they called me and invited me out for brunch and said if I couldn’t make brunch then they were coming over with coffee and pastries. They are way more understanding than the other moms I know and they understand that our lives are completly different! They also constantly remind me that I have a life outside of being Aiden’s mom and that I play many roles in this world.
The few mom friends I have only want to talk about thier kids and we really have nothing in common other than our strech marks and saggy boobs. Which is great sometimes when I need potty training tips or how to handle tantrums. But when I need a shoulder to cry on or to have a good laugh I will always call my non mom friends first.
Definitely feel like having a kid changed my relationship with everyone, some for better (like my parents), some not so much. I feel much closer to my mommy friends (an ally, someone to text when you find a diaper full of glitter) and drifting from my non-mom friends. The true ones stick around, understand and don’t judge your dirty house, but they will not be inviting you to do anything fun with them anytime soon. Others just have no idea and can’t relate at all. One tried to tell me how stressed she was planning a baby shower – honey, try having baby and we’ll talk.
I had my first child when I was 28. That is a little early these days. I had no friends for the longest time. All of my non-mommy friends just didn’t get it. It wasn’t until I hooked up with a Mommy and Me group much later that I found friends. They became my friends and are still my friends 13 years later. I find it hard being friends with moms who have babies. I have a 10 and 13 year old. I do not want to revisit those painful early days, and the baby moms do not want to think about their child turning into a teen so early. So I stick with my mommy group. Our kids are the same age and we are all facing the same challenges. It works out better this way.
JG recently posted..Behind the White Curtain – Karaoke Mama
Yeah I totally get this. It’s like every 10-12 years of kid age the situation changes completely.
StacyQ recently posted..The New Kid
I’ve seen this go another degree – I have drifted apart from my mom friends with older, college age kids because their social time (after work) is my homework-practice-shuttling-dinner-bath-reading-gettobed-time. Outside of my family, my friendship circle has mostly narrowed to women who have kids mine play with. Anyone else I see two or three times a year.
Of course it is possible! I love my non-mom friends! Ok a few of them are gay men.. but they still count right. Who else will talk to me about the new OPI nail colours and wether or not Kate Middleton wore shapewear under that dress.
Most of my friends are non-moms, Mostly Single Ladies. I hang with them if we have time but i always put first my kid over them. I have also guy friends but that silly idea of Harry wouldn’t be True! If all Men would be thinking that, many would commit Sexual Harassment. That would be a Gender War for sure!
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I agree with (and laughed through) everything you wrote. But I do remember a time when I felt the same way about moms. If you can’t focus on the phone call, just tell me and we’ll talk another time. That was my attitude. Now that I fully understand both sides, I try to call my non-mom friends (and my mom by the way) when the kids aren’t around interrupting, screaming etc. Just like you. To avoid the annoyed silence on the other end, the critiscism and the constant interruption on my alone time.
So true. I had my oldest when I was way too young which turned to years as the only one with kids and it was so much work to keep up with my friends who didn’t have kids. Much easier to have friends with the same kind of lifestyle whose idea of a day out is the local bounce house.
Jessica recently posted..Every Little Girl’s Dream
Isn’t this the kind of stuff that just happens though? When I got married I lost some of my single friends because I didn’t want to go out and party all of the time, I wanted to stay in and hang out with my husband. Then when I had kids I lost some of my kidless friends because I simply had to change my day to day life. I can’t go out at the drop of a hat, I don’t have time for leisurely shopping and happy hours. Neither is right, and neither is wrong we’re just doing different things and all have a limited amount of time and resources to do what we want. Some of my single or non parent friends stayed and became better friends, I made new friends, that’s just what happens in life. And it isn’t even a parent/non parent, married/single thing, sometimes you change your job and lose some friends/colleagues along the way and gain others. What’s the problem. The only thing I can’t explain is that I lost all my gay friends along the board. (in my case, none were parents). My dad always used to say: friends come, friends go, some stay, some don’t.
Moomser recently posted..I wasn’t killed by a turkey
I never really thought about any of this before, because I’m fairly certain that my non-mom friends love my son more than they love me! (Not really, but you get the idea) I’ve never had any issues with this. If I’m distracted by him, they totally understand. I never have to hold him or deal with him while we are together, at church or otherwise, because someone is always holding him. (And I take every opportunity to pass him over) So from my experience, moms and non-moms can most certainly be friends!
I see both sides. As a non-mom (at least for the next 5+ months) I know that I stopped trying with at least one or two mom friends, simply because I assumed they were too busy for me or didn’t have the finances to go out to dinner anymore. Their lifestyle changed, they stopped working, and we no longer had anything in common to discuss. Then there are the mom friends who worked hard to keep their identity, and I find it so much easier to hang out with them. Even if all we do is hang out at their house while we chat during bath time and PJ time. Then split a bottle of vino after the kiddo’s in bed.
And it may sound crazy, but I’m actually looking forward to joining the mom club myself, if only because I feel like it’ll be easier to make friends. Making friends as an adult is tough.
Liz recently posted..30 Days of Thankful: The Wrap Up
This is sad, but I find that it’s true. I don’t have any non-mommy friends left. Seems like once I had my daughter, they all fled like the plague. Oh well, guess they weren’t meant to be in my life in the first place.
It would be nice for it to be different, but it really does depend on the person. I’m sure there are non-mommy friends that are like family to the kids. So I guess (hope) it just depends.
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This is something else I don’t understand. Once someone has a child and their friends all “disappear”, they blame the friends. Your friends didn’t change, you did. Of course it depends on the person, but it really isn’t that hard to understand. Having a child is a monumental thing, a life changing thing, and not expecting change is unrealistic.
I agree, I did change–priorities changed. But I was willing to make time for them. In this case I did all the calling and initation. When hanging out with them there was no baby talk. It just got down to the point when they just said they don’t have anything in common with me anymore–now that I had a kid.
IMO both parties change, the mommy who still wants to in and accommodate their friend, and some non-mom friends who think you’re a completely foreign person just because you change diapers.
The only one that I’m still cool with is a person who had kids 5 years way before I was thinking about it. All I saw was a woman who has a new responsibility but still my friend. It depends on the person.
Never thought about it but it looks like it’s true. I don’t have any friends who don’t have kids anymore. They all somehow disappeared.
But it’s not just moms without kids. I have the same experience with moms who have grown up kids (10 and older) Since I have 10, 5, and 6 months moms of only 10 year old stopped calling me for chats or invite us over. Our schedule is just too different for them, I guess.
Victoria recently posted..Feeding schedule – 6 months
Well, my best lifelong girlfriend and I do pretty ok with it. She has a little one under her ass all the time, and well…I don’t.
She’s married. I’m not. She works at home. I work at the office.
Two totally different worlds.
BUT.
I gotta say…it works for us. I understanding her having to drop the call mid-sentence because the little one is choking on the arm of her Barbie she jammed too far down her throat just like she’s ok with me cutting her off in mid-sentence because the boss is calling out for me.
And I’m ok with her having to go quick because her husband just walked in the door and she’s ok with me having to go quick because, “New dude is calling on the other line!”
It works for us. Kind of a barter thing.
But we both work at it. It ain’t always the easiest.
Takes lots and lots of love.
Carrie recently posted..I like them. I really, really like them.
I’m a single non mum. My close friend has 2 kids. Our friendship has evolved and changed since she had kids but for the better. We still spend lots of time together but with the kids. The kids and I have a fantastic relationship that I cherish and its works well for my friend and I. She is still the same person that I have always laugh with and had a good time with. We are one of the lucky ones where our friendship got closer and I am able to share with her the joy and happiness her family brings her.
I would say it has a definite effect on the friendship. One of my best friends is single, but she is also a teacher, and she refers to it as birth control. Any time she has baby fever she heads to my house or just calls during their waking hours. She is promptly reminded why she doesn’t need to have kids yet. I think it is do-able though. Dating on the other hand – with someone who has no idea what life with kids is like is absolutely impossible.
Megan recently posted..“Home is not a place, but a sense of self”
yea, mom friends def get “it” while non-mom friends are completely clueless, and that’s the understatement of the year.
Just the other day a non-mom friend of mine said “Lauren, I don’t know how you can’t DEAL with life like me and my husband do and we have full-time jobs.” I had forgot her birthday and called her to apologize when she started hinting that the only responsibilities I had are my kids, since I don’t have a “REAL job”. WTF?!?
It took my sister 3 years and one pregnancy for her to realize that this is how it is. I make the special effort to call her in the car (sans Crazies), but even that is rushed. She’ll get it in March when she pops out her little bundle of joy.
Rebecca @ Unexplained X2 recently posted..Moments
Oh the non-mommy friends are droppin’ like flies. But life has its seasons. There is the date-good-looking-men-who-cheat-on-you-with-airline-stewardesses phase, the party-with-the-gay-men-because-you’re-bitter-about-the-good-looking-men-who-cheated-on-you-with-the-airline-stewardesses phase, then there’s the date-men-who-are-firends-with-married-people-so-they-might-marry-you phase, not to be outdone by the hanging-out-with-other-honeymooners-who-have-bladder-infections-phase, followed by the I-don’t-know-any-other-prenant-women phase, closely tailgated by the lonely-new-mommy-Gymboree-rainbow-parachute-phase which hopefully flowers into the Found-My-Mommy-Pussy-Posse phase. What comes after all that? I don’t know. I’m too tired to think after all of those ———
I have a 3 year old and a ten month old. Basically none of my friends have children and the majority work in retail management (I used to as well, but am now a stay at home mom). My ten month old is a terrible sleeper and traveler, and has a general fussy disposition. It’s not an excuse, it’s just a fact of life, it makes it more difficult and less appealing to leave the house with him. I was expressing to a friend that I wish I had more opportunity for human interactions other than with just the peanut gallery, and after getting another “what did you expect” spastic conversation with a friend I came to this website thinking surely somebody feels the same way. It’s frustrating–there really isn’t a so-called balance when your children are this young and your husband supports your family. (Mine works 48-60 hours a week on a second shift schedule, not ideal.) I barely have enough time to spend with him let alone making the time and effort to spend with people who seem to think me having children is a lifestyle choice similar to being a drug addict. Maybe I expect a little more effort from a *real* friend to be slightly more compromising or a little more willing to go the extra mile–sometimes literally–to see/spend time with me because my time is incredibly limited. I’m not saying their time isn’t as valuable, but when your only responsibility is work then I think you CAN be a little more flexible if you WANT to be. You have to work around your work schedule, I have to work around my husband’s, your’s and my children’s. GIVE ME A BREAK!
I too, thought this to be true. Until I met one of my closest friends now. She gets it. But I think I know why she gets it, her sister has two kids and she lived with her sister’s family for awhile, she understands the mommy distraction. So, in essence, her sister prepped her for being my friend without even knowing it! Yay sis!
I had a friend who asked me to be one of her bridesmaids (she was one of mine, we were best friends growing up) even though I was pregnant with my second child and was due 6 weeks before the wedding.
But fastforward a few months and she couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t be coming to her bachelorette party/showers. These were all going to be held during the six weeks before I was due and would be over 400 miles from where I lived. There was no way I was driving that far.
I graciously dropped out of the wedding, she gave me another role in the wedding. We are still in touch and get together twice a year. But I wonder if she thinks back to her attitude about the wedding. Especially after a few years later, her first child was born 9 weeks premature and she made it through 40 weeks of pregnancy with her second. Maybe know she understands why I wasn’t up to traveling that late in my pregnancy!
I still have non-Mom friends, but the relationships have definitely changed. A number of them just don’t get me anymore- they don’t understand the stuff I talk about or find it irrelevant.
Here’s a great interaction I recently had with a non-Mom friend. My toddler was bent over in a weird position. She looked at him and said innocently, “what is he doing?” Not even thinking, I said, “pooping”. She was totally disgusted. Moms would just know and laugh. She was very upset. Still friends, but now a different vibe between us.
Mommy Shove recently posted..December 1, 2011 ~ An Ode to Cock and Caca (It’s not what you think!)
I had to think about it, but all my friends are now moms. The one non-mom friend I had, is now a mom, and a life long friend.
I think we all have different priorities at different times in our life. It’s easier to be friends with people you get your world, than with people who don’t get your world.
I had a mom friend, who was obsessed with play dates and oh lord, when I said I needed space, she went nuts. I’m my own person and I don’t need a friend to define who I am, I choose to have friends to bring fun and joy in my life!
CrazyNutsMom recently posted..Savor Family Flavor
I would say 99% of my friends right now are moms (of all age kids.) They just GET IT. My non-mom friends didn’t get that, no, I can’t go out to dinner at 8pm, I have to get the kids in bed. Or that I can’t just drop everything and meet up for happy hour. (We don’t live near any of our family, so we have no built-in babysitters.) Dinner and drinks and movies require a few days notice and planning.
It’s not always childless friends who can be the issue though. I too had a close friend who distanced herself from me when I had my baby boy. That was hurtful, but what was worse was the friend who, while pregnant with her first, thought she knew it all about parenting. She started to tell me not necessarily what I was doing wrong, but what she thought was right. I had to hear several times, that natural childbirth is the only right way to have a child (I had to have an emergency c-section with my son). This is just one of the many things I did/do wrong in raising my child! Lets just say we are no longer talking and that it is best for all!
Cassie recently posted..Good Feeling: Gone!
My best friend (roommates thru college, matron-of-honor @ both of my weddings, and godmother to both of my boys) & and I have survived the diametrically different patches thru years.
She moved into the Momhood numerous years before I did, and now she an almost empty nester. Keys to our success…years of shared memories, a commitment to proving her Mother wrong (graduation day she tried to prepare two weepy & hungover girls that lives change & friends drift apart), bountiful understanding & acceptance, and never keeping a tally.
But I agree with other commenters…moms & non-moms have such different demands, priorities (sleep!) and schedules that it makes keeping up those friendships almost impossible.
Heck. I’d love to go out on a random Wednesday, have one too many margaritas, call in “sick” on Thursday & lay around in my PJs all day watching chick TV, but…
Lollie @FortuitousHousewife recently posted..Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me!
Oh goodness. I am so glad that other people have this problem. I find that my non parent male friends are more accepting when I forget to call them back because my DD is throwing a hissy fit. My non mom friends seem to be judgemental because I can’t go out drinking every night since I have someone to take care of.
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Totally. One of my friendships ended because of this kind of thing. My twins were about a year old and she e-mailed me asking if we could have lunch sometime. I e-mailed her back and gave her a list of days and times over the next two weeks when I was free. Mostly in 1.5 to 2 hour slots here and there. I never heard back from her. Huh. ;)
Meredith Bland recently posted..Car-versations.
so I skipped most of these comments since I don’t have time to read them all.
years ago when I only had 3 kids I was on the phone with a company rep trying to obtain their services (pay them!) The rep said (do to the noise in the background) “Should I call you back at a better time–it sounds busy there?” I replied “There is no better time unless you call at midnight, but then I hope to be sleeping”.
So we have one of my girlfriends staying with us for a month.
She sleeps til ten, naps sometime in the afternoon, likes to work on her laptop til 2 or three am with the tv on … sounds like a non Mom too me ;)
By Word of Mouth Musings recently posted..Will the real you step forward?
I am sooo lucky to have a non-mom friend who loves my kids like they were her own. I’m sure she sometimes gets irritated by the background noise/requests, but heck, she’s got a dog that barks in the background as much as my kids holler.
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You do realize that when you have the attitude that non-moms —have no right to be tired, our tired is much different, worse, never-ending than theirs, –only we, not they, have the right to cancel plans–can’t they adjust their schedule more–can’t they be more understanding–they have different priorities, they are having fun, getting rest,–my family is my priority now even tho I used to love BFF like a sister –and the they just don’t understand attitude—THIS is part of the fodder and the reasons the friendship starts fading away. (I realize this is not the attitude of every mom)
Friendship is a two-way street. If one street is a constant hassle, drivers tend to avoid it after awhile. A non-mom can be understanding, helpful, friendly, generous, welcoming, etc., etc., and when all she hears 24-7, is I can’t , I can’t, I can’t. and virtually never get a return call or email….what do you think they’re gonna do? (Heck, many marriages suffer and break up because one parent can’t focus on anything else than the offspring. If you can’t have this two-way street with your spouse once you have kids and your BFF relationships are suffering, I don’t think it is the ‘other’ person’s fault or priorities.)
I have talked this over w/ some certain parents I feel comfortable with, and I find it odd that my parents and their friends didn’t have this problem, whether they worked or not, they were adults with children in their lives, children were PART of their lives, but not their whole entire lives. There was adult time, and child time. They were expected to have adult time more than once or twice a year, they were expected to have adult convos that didn’t include every move Johnny Jr. was making. They tried to have a life and wanted one that didn’t revolve around diapers and chicken nuggets, girl scouts and little league. They didn’t cater to their kids like many of today’s parents do in this very child-centric society.
I have talked this over w/ some certain parents I feel comfortable with, and I and they don’t understand why today, working and non-working parents complain sooooo darn much. Some of these people’s parents had five, six, more kids and they don’t remember a complaint coming out of their parents’ mouths while talking to other adults, even as they got older and would be old enough to understand adult conversations and complaints like this.
Two-way street. It may be easy to lose yourself in the changes, but losing yourself is not good in any relationship, even the relationship with your children.
I loved this post. I’m 21 with two babies 13 months apart and (almost) none of my friends have kids (due to the age…). I still try to find time to hang out with them and most of them don’t mind my kids tagging along with us to lunch or shopping dates, but my biggest problem? Theyre so friggin boring! I honestly love adult conversation with someone who can say more than 35 words, but sometimes I would ether hear the same 35 words at he highest pitch of my daughters voice than listen to why you and your boyfriends sister don’t get along for the 35th time.
That being said I find it equally as hard to get along with other moms… I feel like parenting is pretty common sense, but as my mom frequently reminds me, some people weren’t raised to have common sense! Other moms are not only as limited on time as I am, but some of the ones I know (nameless…) don’t even bring a diaper bag with them, they just only allow themselves out for 3 hours at a time because that’s the amount if time in between diaper changes (ew) and feeding schedules! So ridiculous.
So I guess my biggest dilemma is putting up with anyone, kids or no kids, who doesn’t have common sense. And unfortunately, that’s the majority of people my age.
On another shameless plugging note, if you like this kinda bitching, check out my (very new and small) blog http://Www.youngmommycashmommy.wordpress.com
I can’t honestly say I have an answer to this, I can say that while I have many acquaintances without children, I do not have a single childless friend. This does not disturb me. What does bother me is what happens to those friendships that pre-existed our children. Why was it so much easier to live and let live before we both had kids? Remember those quirky friends that you disagreed with about everything but still loved to be around? I do. Turns out disagreeing about parenting is a bigger hurdle to leap than disagreeing about religion or politics.
All my close friends are non-moms. I would love to have more mom friends but I find that often it seems like the other mother is comparing our children or I have to be careful and almost talk down my kid’s accomplishments. I know this sounds crazy but it is truly how I feel.
Most of my close friends have no children. I still get invites to go out at night, and though many times I have to decline, I make an effort to be around at least some of the time. And while obviously my children would not be welcome to a night out at the bar, as far as going to lunch or trips to the mall, my friends don’t have a problem with my children coming along since, at least for now, we are a package deal.
When it comes to friendship, I think you get out of it what you put in. I have very few mom friends. The ones I do have, six months could easily go by without so much as an email. I don’t hold it against them and I understand things get busy, but there has to be some kind of effort or these friendships will eventually slip away.
A smart man never tells his wife that he has hooked up with any of his female friends. They don’t need to know that his best friend “Abby” knows him in the biblical sense so when the Harry met Sally scenario comes up you just nod and smile.
And on topic, I never had any problems with my child less friends post fatherhood.
But I have a sort of theory about this. I think that friendship requirements are different for a man than a woman. I don’t have to spend hours with the guys to feel like I am caught up and connected.
Jack@TheJackB recently posted..Don’t Fear Failure
I don’t even attempt to make a call when my kids are awake or within the same parameter of me. It’s pointless. Single friends…? Whats that?
I am very, very close friends with 2 women, in their 40′s who have never had children.
We do great together…they are very special people, and that is the key.
VERY SPECIAL, generous, loving people.
Alexandra recently posted..How To Make Friends and Have People Like You
I believe that phenomenon also applies to men. I recall reading and article in Reader’s Digest about a man who met with his BF (before fatherhood) friends years after his marriage. Although he regrets that he can no longer pursue the same hobbies as his friends do, he said it was nothing compared to the joy of being a parent.
I guess the situation can be remedied if the friends will understand that the roles of people change when they make commitments. The only way, however, they can realize that is when they are already in the same situation.
I never comment on these types of things, but kept making comments in my mind, so just had to add my two cents. I am (currently) childless, and have many friends both with children and without. The ability for me to remain close with my friends with children has been based 100% on my Mommy’s friends willingness/respect for our friendship and respect for me as a person who, while childless, still has a full life, with ups and downs, and sleepless nights (insomniac with bouts of anxiety). I’m more than happy to work around mommy’s new schedule (hello, weekly happy hour just isn’t going to work anymore, and that’s fine). Let me come over and cook you dinner. Can’t make it out for a last minute invite, feel free to invite me over to hang with you and the kiddo sometime soon. Got a sitter, great, I’ll drop what I’m doing and enjoy my rare night out with you (I know you treasure them too). In order for me to do these things, I need new mommy to let me know what night she might be free, understand that even though I don’t have kids, I really really really still do want to hang out (I don’t care where), and I actually LIKE your kids (they’re an extension of you and the most important thing in the world to you!!!)
I enjoy these times because I know that my true friends appreciate that while our lives are not on the exact same track right now, my life and choices still have value. New mommy is on an amazing, life-changing adventure, and while I “just don’t get it because I don’t have kids”, I’m still there to offer support, lend an ear, hang with the kiddos (um, kids have sweet toys that childless grownups NEVER have), and learn about this new life adventure you’re on. But, my true friends who are mommies do their best to show respect to the things that are important in my life (and yes, I get that my priorities will shift when I have kids. I don’t yet, this doesn’t mean my life is completely easy and/or empty). If you’re rolling your eyes when I say I’m tired (and trust me, I know what tired is, I’ve had extended care of young children before, and it doesn’t even touch the frustration and sleeplessness of my life long insomnia), telling me my job can’t possibly be stressful, b/c I’m not balancing it with being a mommy, assuming since I don’t have kids that all I do is party, or generally minimizing everything I say and do because “I just couldn’t possibly understand because I’m not a mother”, then I’m going to limit my time with those people. Those people aren’t interested in maintaining a friendship with me. Friendships don’t mean you’re on the same exact track at same moment. We’re BOTH supposed to try our best to be there for each other, empathize, celebrate, and adjust to life changes. Isn’t that what friendship is supposed to be?
I think that you sound like a great friend and you bring up some points that I had not previously thought about. But unfortunately, I don’t think that all of our friends are as understanding and open as you are with yours. I wish they were!
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respect for me as a person who, while childless, still has a full life, with ups and downs, and sleepless nights (insomniac with bouts of anxiety).
THIS is key. I, too, am currently childless and 35. I have friends with kids and friends without. There is something to be learned from those who are in all stages of life. Clearly those with young kids will have shifting priorities. I find that I can learn some things from my friends so that when I have kids, I won’t have [too many?] surprises!
I would caution everyone that what IS now, may not be in the future. Try to maintain friendships with SAHMs, working moms, single moms, childless and childfree. You never know how you may end up 10 years down the road and will need some help from outside your circle.
I just keep thinking, maybe, if we just try to ignore that she doesn’t have kids, she’ll eventually have kids, and she’ll understand. About all of them.
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I’m on the other side of the coin. I’m married, 27, with no kids and we don’t plan on having any until we are in our 30s. I have a pretty good number of friends who do have kids. I’ve really enjoyed watching their kids grow up, I love hearing the hilarious things they say and do, and I’m willing to babysit if they need to put their feet up or pick up something at the store if I am going out anyway. I always put forth the effort, because from someone who did get dropped by “friends” when they had babies because “I didn’t get it” anymore, it really hurts, and if you are my friend, you are my friend for life.
I don’t mind chatting about babies and kids for a while. It gives me ideas and bits of information to store in my memory bank for when I have kids of my own. However, friendship is two sided, and if I am putting the effort forth to try to be understanding and accommodate you and your kids, all I ask for is at least a “thank you.”
To be brutally honest, the mom friends who dropped me after they had babies were a lot like most of the commenters in this entry, and I didn’t even really know how to respond. Of course we have different priorities now, but even though I don’t have kids, I am not a party animal who is out dancing until 2 a.m. and sleeping all day. I have a husband, a job, college classes, and I also have a beautiful niece. And when I do have get togethers and events, I will extend an invite so if nothing else you know I am thinking about you, even if I know you can’t come.
Put yourself in my shoes and try to think what it’s like to be the last of the Mohicans. It’s not a fun place to be. I’m not asking you to drop everything to go bar hopping at 10:00 on a Wednesday. I’m just asking that you not forget about me.
Even as a grandmother and living 1,000 miles away I experience some of the emotions that a non-mommy friend feels. To try to have a long distance phone conversation with my daughter, who has 4 children, can be a test of patience and make me wonder why I even spent the nickel on calling her. It’s difficult to get through one sentence without an interruption on her end of the line. Sometimes I just want my daughter back…. the one I was able to laugh with 10 years ago without the screams of a child/my grandchild who just stubbed their toe happening in the background. Bottom line, it’s really just about how well we are all able to accept changes in life, and some of us are better at it than others.
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As a non-mom, I have to say that I love hanging out with my friends who are moms. I love doing kid things like going to the playground or museum or other kid places; whatever gets me to hang out with my mom friends. I had them over for hot dogs and kid proofed my house the best I could (kinda failed but I tried). I’m a few years off from having my own kids but I feel like I’m on that path so maybe that’s the difference? My best friend has the coolest two year old on the planet who I absolutely adore so that helps, too!
The flip side:
I have two other friends and the three of us were close for a long time. I started dating someone and the friendship kinda fell apart. I felt that there was no space in our friendship for me to have a boyfriend (even though they both did). They tried to make me feel guilty for spending time with my new boyfriend, demanding that I spend every Friday night drinking with them like we had. When it got to be too much for me, I felt bullied and like they were ganging up against me. Not the mention, their boyfriends were asking me all kinds of questions about where I’ve been, etc. I felt incredibly stifled and the friendship became unhealthy for me. They were so unsupportive of me, never getting to know my boyfriend or even care about what was going on in my life. It was really hard for me because I feel like I’ve lost two of my closest friends. I’m sure it was hard on them, too, but they’ve never tried to talk to me about it.
The point? One of those friends was pregnant and I RSVPed to her baby shower (which was the Saturday after Thanksgiving last year). I got stuck in a snow storm in ME and couldn’t make it. Crucify me now: I didn’t have the invite with me so I couldn’t call to let the party thrower know. Anyway, after that, we haven’t really spoken. I still think about these friends all the time and wish things were different. I’m sure they have their side of the story with different feelings than I had. I have made a few attempts to get together with them since but they either couldn’t make it or canceled on me. I miss them but at the same time, feel like it’s for the best. The friendship because toxic for me. I hope that I get to meet my friend’s son one day. I’ve seen a ton of photos on Facebook and he looks like an awesome kid!
The only non-kid friendships that work is when those friends don’t want kids (yet or at all). My best friend and I have a hard go of it because I have two kids and that’s all she wants. Another friend wants to be married with kids but doesn’t have a boyfriend so that’s tension.
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Unless you can get a babysitter one night a week these relationships tend to disappear. Such is the circle of life.
But honestly, I prefer partying and chatting with my mom pals the most. Because when we go out and have a martini together we do not take it for granted.
Real mom friends by the next round and know your volunteer schedule for the next day and so they know when to cut you off.
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This is where Facebook and texting becmoe your best friend.
Non-mom friends can stay involved with my life, and yet miss the down and dirty of it, if they want. I’ve also realized that my non-mom friends are mostly Aunties, and they’ve Auntiedopted my children, so there’s some degree of acceptance. Which is wonderful…
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Some of my single friends can’t handle the kid-aspect of me because they almost feel slighted that I can’t give them as much attention anymore. They have a really hard time understanding that I can’t just run into the city to go for dinner as they hop off a plane and call me 30 minutes before they want to meet. Like I’m supposed to put my son in cold storage for a few hours or something.
On the other hand – sometimes it is really, really nice to go out for dinner with my single gals and not have to talk about diapers, tantrums or the latest toys.
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I only have one girlfriend who isn’t a mom and it’s hilarious to see her bafflement at the running chaos that infuses my home. Gods bless her but she’s trying to understand because all her friends have had kids in recent years so she’s odd gal out.