Gretchen, a.k.a. Texan Mama, spends her days finding rogue singleton socks and tending to the dozen feet that wear those socks. She resides in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex with her husband, 5 children, and one dog (who doesn’t wear socks). In her spare time, she blogs at Who Put Me In Charge Of These People.
I’m a parent. I’m doing the best I can to raise my children with the belief system I have in place. I am using the tools I have to make the best judgments I know.
Here’s the catch: my best judgments may not be in agreement with other people’s best judgments. And, that’s okay. I’m okay knowing that sometimes the way we raise our children doesn’t gel with other families. I can deal with that.
For example, we don’t have cable TV. That’s just our feeling. We believe that cable TV is riddled with inappropriate programs as well as advertisements that promote materialism. Does that mean we don’t let our kids watch cable TV at other people’s houses? No. It’s just not the right fit for our family. They know what cable TV is and they know why we disapprove of it. I think it’s okay for them to have exposure to it occasionally, but I don’t want it to become a part of our everyday life.
Another example would be our religious beliefs. We are conservative Christians. I’m not even going to put our religious beliefs on the same plane as cable TV, because our religion is much much more significant than TV. The two aren’t even close. I’m sure you feel the same way about your faith, whether it be religion or spirituality or even the conscious decision about having no religion at all. It is at your core. Or, it should be, whatever you practice. But the point is, our religious beliefs guide our family decisions and our world view. I don’t expect our world view to be the same as other families’, but I know that it’s a good fit for us.
As I raise my children, I want to surround them with people who are like-minded with us. I want to provide my children with positive role models who practice and support our value system. I think that’s normal, right? On the one hand, some might call it sheltering my child from the real world. They might say that my children need to know what’s out there and need to experience it. True. But I, on the other hand, feel that there is a time and a place for kids to experience the world. I feel like it’s my job to determine when that time should be. I don’t want my kids to see PG-13 movies before they’re 13. I don’t want my kids getting cell phones until they are at least 16. These are decisions I’m comfortable with. And, just because someone else decides differently for their family, doesn’t mean I think they’re wrong. They, and me, and you, have to make decisions that fit for our own unique family dynamic. No one knows the ins and outs of our families better than the people directly involved.
I started writing this post as an afterthought to one I posted a few weeks ago, then took down. The post was asking readers to discuss the fact that my son’s 4th grade teacher is an open lesbian. Immediately commenters responded with what’s the problem? and why is it a big deal? and one even said, contrary to popular belief, they are not child molesters. That comment really hurt, because I never said one negative thing to instigate such a comment. I replied that the reason I was concerned came from a fear that the issue of her sexuality, if discussed openly, would pull the focus of the class away from education and place it somewhere else. Where? I don’t know, but I am pretty sure that place would not be part of the 4th grade science curriculum. I was concerned that it would cause divisiveness with parents, and that it would cause discussions in school that aren’t appropriate for a 4th grade school setting. All of that? 100% true.
But beyond that, I will be honest, because I can. I would prefer my son’s teacher be someone who shared my belief system. I would prefer she be a heterosexual. If I had my choice, I’d prefer she be a Christian heterosexual. NOT because I am afraid of gay people (I’m not). NOT because I hate gay people (I don’t). I just want my child to be surrounded by adults who support and practice our family’s value system. Is that so strange?
On the flip side of that, if you were a parent who raised a child to believe that there is no God, and your child’s teacher were a devout Christian, would you automatically hate her just because your belief systems are different? No. Neither do I hate my son’s teacher. Would you be concerned that her belief system, one that guides her own daily thoughts and decisions, might consciously or subconsciously slant her teaching and her daily interactions with children, especially your child? I do. I worry about it. I worry about anytime my children have contact with people outside of our family. I don’t want to shield my children from everyone whose value systems are different than my own. I don’t want them to become adults who are sheltered and naive. Who would want that for their children? But I just wonder if only conservative Christians get accused of sheltering their children. I wonder if people who reject organized religion are also being told that their children will grow up to be sheltered and naive? I mean, aren’t they keeping their children from the world too?
I fully understand that I don’t have the luxury of always choosing who my child is exposed to. I also get that when I choose to send my child to public school, I’m choosing for him to be exposed to people whose value system may clash with our own. This post is not about what I’m going to DO about who my child is exposed to; it’s about how I FEEL about the people my child is exposed to. It’s also my inner monologue, bubbling out onto the blog page.
I feel that it’s reasonable to expect my child’s teacher to keep her personal life and professional life separate. The situation just gets a little sticky when Mrs. Jones, the history teacher, can say that she went to the museum of natural history with her husband, but Ms. Taylor has to use the term “friend” instead of referring to her partner as “wife” or “partner”. Is this fair? Maybe not. And I’m not a legal expert so I can’t say where the line is, where a teacher’s personal rights supercede the appropriateness of classroom verbiage.
I guess my point is this: there are a lot of people I don’t want to play as a role-model for my child, and I feel it’s my duty as a parent to find the best role-models for my child. It’s my job to help shape my child into the person I think he or she should be. That is the core of parenting: guiding our children to become productive members of society. I realize that my influence will only go so far and at some point in the very near future, my children will have opinions of their own and will probably reject everything I’ve ever taught them. That’s part of adolescence and to be expected. But I would be a failure as a parent if I didn’t try to give my child some moral and ethical values as a foundation on which to build their opinions.
My moral and ethical values? They are mine. And yours are yours. They are beautiful and unique and perfect for your family. They fit you and mine fit me but ours aren’t the same and I can’t expect my values to fit your family, nor can I expect your values to fit mine.
Jill and I have a long history of respectfully agreeing to disagree. I am pretty sure we disagree on this topic as well as others we’ve bumped heads against in the past. But we treat each other with kindness. We don’t make assumptions about the other person. We are polite. We don’t accuse. I can’t imagine a better setting for people from two different viewpoints to come together. Because learning takes place where love gives it a voice. You may not like what I have to say. You may think I’m wrong. But, I’ll say this again:
I’m a parent. I’m doing the best I can to raise my child with the belief system I have in place. I am using the tools I have to make the best judgments I know.
Are any of us really doing any differently?
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{ 561 comments }
Thank you for not being afraid to post your view – or for posting it anyway, even if you were afraid :)
I still don’t know where I stand on this debate. My upbringing and my faith fight with my sense of justice and a general feeling that all men (and women!) are created equal, and nobody deserves persecution.
Wherever I stand though, I believe in respectful debate as opposed to hate-filled condemnation. And you, lady, have nailed the respectful thing! This is the most wonderful and thoughtful post from your viewpoint I think I have ever read.
I hope everyone thinks before they comment, and tries to be as honest and as calm as you have been when stating their views – whatever those might be.
bubbleboo @ The Thought Bubble recently posted..Autism and Year Three – A New Beginning
YES. I totally agree.
While I completely disagree with the sentiment– like, to a crazy degree– it’s interesting to actually see an argument. I have always wondered what possible defense people have for thinking it’s wrong to be gay. I simply could not comprehend anything, so when presented with this view point, I found it enlightening. I don’t support it, I don’t agree with it and I don’t like it. But, I appreciate her telling me something other than “read the bible.” Doesn’t make it better, though.
In terms of teachers, though, I think (public!) school is a place to be introduced to ALL different kinds of people– I think it’s a *good* thing. Frankly, it’s something I feel is lacking in our current school and I don’t like it.
But, yes, we are all just doing the best we can.
Gretchen, I would like to know, though, would you be able to support one of your kids if they turn out to be gay?
Good Question.
I would love to see the response!
Stephanie R recently posted..Best Buy Cares
I think it would be interesting to hear this response too.
Jen recently posted..Kindergarten Social Drama
Before I answer that, I have to ask: Jill, would you support one of your kids if they turn out to be a conservative Christian?
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
But, they wouldn’t be born that way, that’s the difference. You can’t compare it to supporting a child who converts or robs a bank. It’s just not the same.
And, I would have a very hard time with it. Love them, yes, support that choice, no.
I don’t feel that “gay” people are born that way. I think it is a choice they make to pursue those feelings.
Crazy Lady recently posted..My Little Butthead…
I have heard people say that before, but it makes no sense to me. Why would you choose to live a life that has so many challenges. Why would you put yourself in a position in which there are so many battles to be fought.
It is simply illogical and irrational.
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I chose to live my life differently all the time, and it does have it’s challenges. BUT I chose what is best for me and STILL take on those challenges because I KNOW in MY heart I am doing what is right for me and/or my family.
It isn’t about my sexuality, but they are still choices that are not ‘main stream’ and has it’s challenges.
Crazy Lady recently posted..My Little Butthead…
The fundamental difference in opinion here is that I think it is crazy to suggest that people are gay because they choose to be. I am 5’10, but I chose to be 6’2.
Unfortunately genetics didn’t give a damn about my choice so I am stuck at 5’10.
There are some things that we don’t get to choose.
I’m not saying I know which argument is correct here, but it’s not definitively known whether or not homosexuality is genetic. Yes, there are studies that have shown very persuasive proof that it might be, but those are corollary. No one has been able to produce a specific gene that is common to all homosexuals. So in that sense, I suppose some people might feel justified in claiming that it is preference.
Alexis recently posted..gay marriage
I think all you really have to do is ask a gay person if they’re *choosing* to be gay.
Pretty sure most of them would tell you no.
Lessons in Life and Light recently posted..A Contribution and why I hate Katy Perry
No one has proven that god exists either yet people choose to believe that he/she/it does. Yet people feel obligated to tell others what they think god wants, even if it means practicing religious terrorism.
Is it possible that some people choose to be gay? Sure, it is possible but if we allow ourselves to stretch, twist and bend we can make any argument sound logical.
Someone once explained it to me like this:
How did you know you were right handed or left handed? As far as I’m aware they haven’t found a rightie/leftie gene. Some people are just left handed. It’s not a choice they make. Although, in the past, parents and teachers tried to force them to stop using their left hand and use the more accepted right hand, when it comes down to it, they are still left handed.
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People choose to lead challenging lives all the time. People choose to recreate with things they know will lead to addiction. People choose to engage in dangerous relationships. People choose to commit crimes, though they usually know there will be consequences. People make decisions that lead to poor health, and even death. Maybe some people want drama and struggles so that they feel alive. Maybe they crave attention. Maybe conflict gives them an adrenaline rush. I don’t know, but I don’t think it is safe to say that just because someone leads a difficult life, they are doing so out of something other than their free will. Many of us lead difficult, conflict-ridden, dangerous lives. We don’t all claim it’s because of our DNA.
A lot of people choose self-destructive behavior. Think of all the single mothers out there who don’t have the child support needed to raise their children in a secure environment. Their choices resulted in that life style. It’s no different.
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Did you choose to be straight? Could anyone ever make you a lesbian? If you find that concept totally alien, then please remember that that is how a lesbian would feel if you told her she could choose to be straight.
Beyond which, why would someone deliberately choose a path that would open them up to bullying, rejection from family, and life-long discrimination?
The Mother Tongue recently posted..A final WEG ticket contest…and why Haiti matters
My daughter just recently came out at age 14. She is in so much pain right now. Fear that she will be rejected by all. I know she is a smart girl and this cannot be a choice. She is hurting. There is no way a 14 year old would choose to be in this sort of pain! Thank you for your comment. Reading everyone’s responses worries and scares me for my daughter. Reading yours made me see that there will be plenty of people out there to support her even if there are some out there that may never.
Thank you for being such a strong and loving mother. I wish more LBGTQ kids had accepting family and friends like you. Tell her to hang in there, and check out the It Gets Better site.
The Mother Tongue recently posted..Brunch with the Prom Queen
Pretty sure it’s been proven that it’s not a *choice* to be gay/straight. Like medically proven.
I’m Episcopalian –> we have gay members & priests and that doesn’t make them less fit to lead a congregation of people. If we are all made in God’s image, all children of God, I’m pretty sure God loves gay people, too. He loves ALL his creation.
Sara — The Football Wife recently posted..Getting Wisk-ed Away!
A-Men … :-)
Just checking, is it okay for me to love, respect, and care for people I don’t agree with? My son’s teacher is a good teacher and I’ve told him as much. I just don’t agree with her choice to lead a homosexual lifestyle. I also don’t agree with my relative who lives with his girlfriend. I love him like crazy and would do almost anything for him. But I would not tell him that I think he’s right to be living with someone else out of wedlock.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
Gretchen, I understand that you have deep Conservitive christian values and want your children to be raised in such a way. However in your post and your comment you state things such as being gay and /or living with someone out of wedlock is something you don’t believe is right, and so obviously you are teaching your children that what you believe is right , is what they should believe to be right. So how will your children judge YOU and your actions when they see you judging others on how they lead THEIR lives. You have chosen to be married and have 5 children and a dog. You have chosen to not include people whom are different from your values to be a part of your everyday lives and possibly you dinner table as part of discussion. So I am not sure if this is from a fear that surrounding yourself and your children with people that are different from yourselves may offer your children or even possibly you to see that judging others is never the way to better yourselves , seeing things from their perspective may actually enlighten you and make your faith stronger.
Will your children be confused or angry when they read or find out that you were sexually active BEFORE you were married, and with someone other than your husband? Or are your past regressions off limits to being judged by you or your children? What if your church or friends or congregation decided that you may not be welcome to attend functions or worship once they found out your sexual preference to be that way before marriage. Would you find it ridiculous because that is not why a person should be accepted or not? You are not a bad person for doing those things, nor should you be judged based upon what YOU chose to do. Unfortunately in my opinion , of course , I think that what you may be missing from all of this is that you are actually teaching your children to NOT be christian , by telling them that other people should be judged by leading an honest and loving life. They are not criminals nor deviants. Just as you are not by the choices you have made. Instead you should consider being HONEST with your children and telling them that the truth is that you will not be accepting of THEM if they chose to lead a lifestyle that is different from yours. At least that way your children could have the decency to not live in fear of others because they are different from you.
This would have been just a post about your opinion and your beliefs , but unfortunately I can’t see it as that because you have chosen to tell your children that while others may be nice and decent people ,they are living their lives in an unacceptable manner and are not okay because of it. And that in my opinion is troubling because your children may grow up to feel the same way about gay/lesbian/transgender people as they do about serial killers and thieves. And this makes me sad. ( I hope this doesn’t come across as hostile towards you, I am just trying to make a point as you have and in an understanding a respectful manner).
I am openly gay, and at no point in my life did I decided I wanted to be gay. I was born this way. Never in my life would I wish this upon my worst enemy. There is criticism always thrown my way, and life is hard. Harder than it should be because people aren’t supportive.
Why would I come out as gay? Because I can’t suppress the feelings. Can you suppress the feelings you feel towards men, or more specifically your husband? No. Would you want to? Probably not.
Being Gay is not a choice. It’s how God made some people, and I’m finally at peace with that. Please open your heart to everyone. If for nothing else than for the sake of your children.
Amen A, Amen.
J recently posted..Rotisserie Chicken at Home!
To say people can’t be born with a tendency toward religion is just the same as saying people can’t be born with a tendency toward homosexuality. I think both can (do) happen.
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Gays are not ‘born that way’ either! It’s introduced/down loaded by trauma and resentment. Being gay is not a natural human state.
I disagree. It’s proven that in the natural world, animals are homosexual. Humans are animals. Why would it be different for humans?
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not sure this statement is correct… i haven’t done the research, maybe you have, but i was under the impression that animals with homosexual tendencies only displayed them in the absence of the other gender, and that what maybe classified as “homosexual” tendencies does not translate into what we’re defining as homosexual here. I’m intrigued I’m going to do more research…
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/25/science/25sheep.html
A few years ago, I remember gay sheep were everywhere. Then this PETA misunderstanding thing happened and I haven’t really heard much about it since. But yeah, there are gay animals.
This documentary ran on TRIO ages ago and was pretty cool:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1045236/
Homosexuality in animals appears to be an in-born trait that has nothing to do with exposure to the opposite sex or not. Scientists haven’t definitively determined if it’s hormones in utereo, DNA, brain structure, hormone production, or whatever. Mammals are complex; we may never pinpoint the cause. Point is, not a choice.
thanks off to check out the links
Humans are not animals, we have a conscience and understanding.
Animals live from instinct, and are wired to REACT to their external environment.
So glad someone said that. I cringe every time I hear people say “humans are animals”.
This is a lie. Bold faced, outright, scaremongering lie. I am gay. It is as much a part of who I am as much as you are straight. Period. It is as natural to me as being straight is to you. You can no more prove that gay is unnatural than I can prove to you that straight is unnatural.
kim recently posted..Day 1 – 30 Days of Truth
Sandra,
How many different names will one person use to comment here. Pick one and stick to it.
Jack,
I have only one name and that’s the one I go by…….I don’t understand????
Sandra McNeil.
Jack,
What ‘other names’ are you suggesting I am?
And why do you assume I’m others?
This comment enrages me. I want to say a lot of things, but I am going to hold my tongue…
I will say that being gay is definitely not a choice, but being a judgmental B is.
Amen Allison.
kim recently posted..Day 1 – 30 Days of Truth
Amen Allison!
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You still haven’t answered the question, Texan Mama.
I really don’t want to take the post in a crazy direction. It isn’t about what my son is going to choose for his life, at least right now. The post was about my inner struggle to give my child the best role-models that I can while he’s still young enough to listen to me (LOL!)
But, I will say this: I am a mother who fiercely loves her children. If I didn’t why would I be concerned about this. Of course, whatever my son does as he grows, I will always love him and welcome him into my home. I may disapprove of his choices but that will never change my love for him.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
I understand your fears and your concerns. As a gay man i would offer this, just because your son’s teacher is a lesbian does not necessarily mean that she is not a Christian. I am a Christian as well. I think when it comes to all areas of sexuality we want to protect our children. The birds and bees should be explained by the child’s parent. I hope you can find a way to let them know there are people who love the same sex as well as the opposite sex.
I dont think ten year olds should have to face issues of sexuality in the schools, my neices and nephews have always known i was gay and that my partner of 18 years now, were a couple just like their own parents. But we have never flaunted or discussed what we did in our bedroom with them. There are appropriate times in a child’s life to learn certain things. Ten year olds shouldnt have to face the differences or the mechanics of sexuality. They should be worried about homework, playtime and watching cartoons and playing video games.
And, Stephanie, I wanted to email you but I couldn’t because I didn’t see a link. If you can give one I’d like to say one more thing.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
absolutely! Email away
steph.rutledge@gmail.com
talk soon!!
Stephanie R recently posted..Best Buy Cares
Wow! Just like @bubbleboo, I’m on the fence about this issue for EXACTLY the reasons she laid out. I do have to commend Texan Momma for making a very compelling and articulate argument, which at the same time was most respectful. And I commend you on just doing the best you can for your children – I think with those goals, no matter what side of this issue you are on, putting the kiddos is the most important thing.
Thanks for causing me to really think this morning!!
Heidi @ The Good Stuff Guide recently posted..Simply the Hamptons
PEOPLE ARE BORN GAY.
My cousin says he wishes every day that he wasn’t gay just so that his life would be easier.
Also- I didn’t see a reply as to how you would treat your child if he/she was gay?
Stephanie R recently posted..Best Buy Cares
This also makes me crazy to an insane level.
You want to teach that homosexuality is wrong in your home? Fine.
But the teacher thing? Man.
Would be a horrible thing for your children to see that a gay person can be a good, contributing, nice person in society? If they ever even knew she was gay. And if they knew, SO?
GAY PEOPLE HAPPEN.
She’s gay. Mentioning “my partner” is really going to undo all your years of teaching in the home? Shouldn’t you have a little more faith in your faith and instruction than feeling such discomfort and fear at the fact that your children would know their teacher is gay???
Would you object to someone wearing a cross on their neck? Or a passing statement “I can’t meet with you on Thursday for test make up or I’ll be late to Bible Study”. Not like they would see anything remotely sexual in the classroom.
I am not going to call her a homophobe (because really, that and racism should now be included in Godwin’s Law, IMO) but man…that poor teacher. Having to justify yourself again and again and again “You’re a GREAT teacher BUT…”
What a wretched thing.
I would really rather my kids witness kindness and compassion and understanding of the things I object and find wrong due to my faith or lack of. Talk to them, explain it. IMO that is a much better role models than being so afraid of everything you keep everything a bubble.
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
ARG. I hit publish too soon. And this MUST be said.
I know Gretchen and she is a very good person. VERY. And I admire the utter balls it took to put this out there. Discussions like this (though they can drive us all bat crazy) are a very, GOOD THING.
xo
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
Thanks for the second post Loralee. Because to be honest? I’ve always been very nice and respectful to you and it had me in tears that you would say all that. I’m sorry you don’t agree with me.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
I sent you an email, hon. I don’t think less of you and like I said you are a very good person and I consider you a friend.
And I should not have talked to a friend, or anyone like that.
My state is in a huge, huge, uproar about homosexuality right now. HUGE. And I wrote about it this week and well…I have had a whole lot of email and conversation that has left me way, way, WAY more sensitive and defensive than I should have been when commenting.
I let my general frustrations about this subject get the better of me and I am very apologetic. I usually pride myself on civil, respectful discourse. (Insert that whole “pride goeth before the fall” thing, here)
Much of what you say here (like having an even plain and not pulling your kids out of school) is admirable. We utterly disagree on some points but you have never been anything less than respectful with me and I am a shitbag for being less so with you.
I’m sorry, Gretchen. xo
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
I feel like I want that on a t-shirt. Gay people happen.
Issa recently posted..This parenting gig isn’t easy
It would be pretty damn good.
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
Nah, shit happens. Gay people rock.
Better said. :)
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
I want this whole exchange on a tshirt…cafepress, here I come.
And, while I’m here, I am curious, Texan Mama…If your kid’s teacher were straight, married, and JEWISH (rather than Christian) and said “Gee, kids, I won’t be here tomorrow because my husband and I are going to synagogue for the holidays,” would that be a distraction from the educational process that should be occurring in the classroom? Because I am pretty sure education is supposed to be about teaching our children to think critically, which means they must be exposed to a variety of possibilities.
My parents raised me in an observant Jewish home, but they sent me to an Episcopalian school for a while. I promise, I didn’t lose the faith and values they taught me at home just because I also participated in discussions about Christianity and learned the Hail Mary and the Lord’s Prayer. I would hope, as someone earlier said, you would have more faith in your faith, your parenting, and your kids…one teacher is not going to change the upbringing you are giving your kids.
But more power to you for having the chutzpah to express your opinion. I believe you have every right to it. Just as I have every right to love who I want, marry who I want, pray to whatever God or Goddess I choose, etc.
but i still feel it’s too “labeling”
SM, I definitely think you make a valid point about public school being a place for children to have a variety of experiences and to meet all sorts of people.
Unfortunately, at least in my part of California since I can’t really speak for places where I don’t live, “alternative” lifestyles (which really are becoming mainstream and that might no longer be an appropriate term) are taught and embraced while Christianity and many Conservative “moral values” are not allowed to have a place in schools. There have been numerous lawsuits on the very issue.
The point is, if we’re going to expose children to ALL kinds of people, regardless of the values that are taught at home, then that really has to mean ALL kinds of people.
Thank you for the respectful debate!
Karen Peterson recently posted..Face it Friday! Week 41
I think there are so many things that we have to concern ourselves with when bringing up our children that as much as you can teach them your beliefs and your values, they will ultimately make up their own opinion even from a very young age. My respect for teachers is enormous especially in a system where everything is overruled by beauracracy and paperwork and an exposure to personal differences is not a bad thing, its about understanding that people are different and not about ‘converting’ or ‘influencing’ someone to be a particular way. My thoughts on your post are how do I see this in terms with how I raise my son and my answer to that is that I raise him to understand that people are individual, they are different and their life choices may not be the same as ours. There are things that he is subjected to via the school curriculum that I do not agree with because I think he is still too young but I use this as a opportunity to discuss diversity with him. My example on this is he had an esafety presentation about the dangers of the internet, when he came home from school he told me many of the children found it scary because this was their first exposure to it. When I asked if he did, he said ‘Of course not, you’ve explained it to me, so I knew about it’. So my point is that yes we do what we feel is right for our children, that is our right as parents but by sheltering them from things that you do not wish them to be subjected to as they are against your values means that you are missing a fantastic opportunity to educate, share and discuss with your children. I don’t want my son to be closed off to experiences but I want to be involved and I want to be able to give him a fair chance to be to make his decisions with an open mind.
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Just so I’m clear, my 3 older children all know what it means to be gay and they also understand what our feelings are about it and why we feel the way we do. If the subject of my son’s teacher’s sexuality came up in school, he would understand what it meant. Sarah-Jane, I’m sure you’re surrounding your son with positive role models, especially yourself. My unwritten question in this post is, who gets to decide what a positive role model is for your child? Maybe who I think is a positive role model is not the same for you. And, while I do accept that, I am sad about it and I worry about my child. I think we all wish for our children to grow up happy and healthy and intelligent and I worry about his choices and who will influence those choices.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
Its a very good unwritten question and one that shows how much you care and worry about. Your title specifically highlights one stereotype but I am starting to think more about your post in the way that it was more of an example of your concern rather than the actual concern.
For your point on positive role models, as much as I try to surround my son with positive ones, unfortunately there are also a number of negative ones that I cannot stop him being exposed to unless I lock him away. For me a negative role model is someone who benefits from other people’s misery, it is someone who does not care, does not respect others, lies, cheats, that type of thing. So yes our views are very different but our worry is the same.
We may not have a choice on who may have an influence on them but we do have the ability to ensure that our children have the love, grounding, understanding and this will give them the freedom to make their own choices. I understand completely with the underlying question about how much these people will influence them, but I also believe people outside of their home whilst they are growing up are not the major influences in their life – we are.
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As a teacher, I feel it’s the teacher’s responsibility to keep my professional and personal lives separate too. As I read this, I kept thinking, “How does everyone know she’s gay? Did she share that with the kids?” That’s inappropriate. Just as is talking about religion or politics. I do talk about politics with my students (5th graders) but not about what I believe. I ask questions or have them think about what they believe. And as a non-Christian, I never share that with my students OR their parents. And if they write an answer to a question that includes God or a religious belief (I teach reading) and it’s a good answer to the question, I’ll put a smiley face or write, “Good answer,” because my goal is to get my students to THINK for themselves. Not to have them believe what I believe. Yes, they have to learn the state mandated curriculum, but they also need to start exploring their own ideas. And if their beliefs differ from mine, that’s fine. But they don’t even need to KNOW what my beliefs are.
Interesting.
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I like this! Gretchen- this is sort of what my comment to your first post about this was. I was inquiring as to how much this teacher discusses it. I had said I had no problem with your scenario of her discussing going to the museum of natural history with her partner. But, if she is telling them she’s gay and talking about her rights as a gay person, then that is a teacher with an agenda and it totally inappropriate. I wouldn’t want my son’s teacher pushing ANY agenda on him… political, religious or otherwise.
That is part of the beauty of being in the area I am in- we are surrounded by a diverse group of people. For example, my son gets the day off school on Rosh Hashanah. It has prompted questions on Judaism and we discuss it and what other faiths believe. I like that he has all of this knowledge so that when he is older, he can form his own education opinion and.
Whatever your beliefs and morals are- you instill them into your children and if you do a good job of that, they may stray in those rebellious years and experiment ( but that is totally normal- even the Amish have a name for this and turn a blind eye while their kids have little wild, wordly streaks) but if you did your job instilling those lessons, most will keep them at their core and return to their beliefs. Unless of course, they are me, who by the time I graduated college, had completely done a 180. But, I’m weird like that. =)
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“But, if she is telling them she’s gay and talking about her rights as a gay person, then that is a teacher with an agenda and it totally inappropriate.”
Are you serious? When I was a kid I knew which teachers were Married, which were single, which were nuns etc. My 4th Grade teacher showed us pictures of her WEDDING. Our whole class wrote made her a wedding card. (man, her “agenda” pushing sure worked) My Black 8th grade teacher taught us about Martin Luther King and acceptance and NOT being prejudiced and “Black Rights.” My FEMALE 5th grade teacher pushed HER agenda on us by teaching us about WOMEN’S RIGHTS.
Teachers aren’t robots. They’re PEOPLE. And They’re diverse. And they’re AMAZING.
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APPLAUSE!!!! I am a former homeschooler, and feel that teaching does not end in school.
I LOVE the way you feel as teacher to let them THINK FOR THEMSELVES!!! I pulled my then Kindergarten out of school (after homeschooling her brothers for YEARS!!!) because she got in trouble for drawing after her work was done. She was a reader already and the teacher would not even let her read at her desk.
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Jules, that is exactly what I was thinking. Her sexuality is not something that should be discussed in a 4th grade class.
While conservative myself, I am very accepting of all types of people. My sister is very openly gay, and we all love her and welcome her and don’t try to hide her sexuality from our kids. My in laws’ life styles are contrary to the values we teach our kids, but we still love and honor them. I like the fact that my kids are exposed to all different types of people and realize that it’s ok to be different, whether “different” is being religious and conservative or if “different” is being gay. I love people for who they are, not what they do. And yet, I would prefer that sexuality and lifestyle choices NOT be part of the discussion at elementary school.
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Jules,
YES! I totally agree with you. Absolutely.
(Me and my husband are both teachers, too).
While I agree with keeping politics and religion separate, does it make it wrong for teachers to discuss their husbands/wives if they are hetrosexual? Why should she keep it like its a dirty little secret? That is just perpetuating the discrimination against homosexuals.
I’m not saying to never discuss a story about home. I don’t say, “My husband and I were watching tv.” I say, “Insert Husband’s name and I were watching tv.” Before we were married, we lived together. I didn’t tell my students that. There have been teachers in my own building who have shared with their students (as young as 2nd grade) that they were getting divorced. Kids don’t need to come to school and learn about that. That’s not why they’re there. It’s fine to say, “My friend” or “Sharon” or something, but why make it a big deal? Our main job is to EDUCATE kids how to think for themselves. And to tell you the truth, I’m thankful for parents who are actually PARENTING their kids! I have a ton of students who are raising themselves with me as a backup! I can help teach the fundamental values of respect, responsibility, persistence, etc., but otherwise, let the family do the rest. I’ve got enough on my plate.
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i was wondering that too, how did the children know she was gay? How did it come up? Personally I agree with you, I don’t think teachers should discuss sex, religion or politics, children are just too ‘formable’ especially if they adore the teacher
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The problem I have with this don’t ask, don’t tell is that straight teacher A can bring their spouse to functions, gay teacher b can’t because they have to hide their relationship. Unsaid but assumed by you was that the teacher told the students- it could very well be a case of they live in a small town and just by going about their daily business people you realize they aren’t in a conventional relationship.
I’m not picking on you, just wanted to comment on this post so figured I’d toss this in as well:
Gayness is not catching and judging is not Christian. Those of you who say gayness is a choice- do you actually KNOW gay people who are oftentimes in tears from the persecution? Have you asked them why they *haha yeah, right* choose to be discriminated against?
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First- I am agnostic- my husband is agnostic. (if you do not know the correct definition PLEASE look it up) We have three beautifully healthy children – both mentally and physically. However we have been very open about religion and the choices they have (my children are ages 7, 8 and 9) and we have explained that we encourage them to have a religion and choose whatever shall fit them correctly.
Same goes with decision for life in general, we try to help them make informed decisions- but allow them to be their own person. Who am I as a parent, to TELL them what their religion is, or what their beliefs on other things SHOULD be. It will only make them resent me when they get older.
They know about gay people, in fact the all three think that it is something they think should be allowed- love IS love. However thats not the only thing they think. My 8 year old became a vegetarian for a period of time because he thought how animals were treated was wrong, and I whole heartedly supported it.
I have had a HANDFUL of christian teachers- some who have even tried teaching my children their religion in SCHOOL. Which honestly was upsetting- but I held my breath and allowed it to be taught and told my children that it was how the teacher believed but they had a choice of how they feel, and what they want to believe.
If one of their teachers were gay I wouldnt treat them any different than I would a straight teacher.
If you are so narrow minded about this then maybe you should home school your child.
Just my opinion!
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Hi Stephanie. I’m not narrow minded about this any more than a person who is narrow minded about Christianity thinks all Christians are fanatics. I can tell from your comment that you’re really open to all ways of life and that sounds like a good fit for your family. Actually, I have thought about homeschooling my family. But, if I took my kids out of public school because a gay teacher would be allowed to discuss her personal beliefs, how would that be okay? It would be no better than a parent taking their gay child out of school because the teacher discussed her disdain for homosexuality. I don’t think EITHER situation is okay. If public school is available to *every* family, and it claims to respect the rights of every family, then it can’t draw the line in the sand and say this family can discuss their personal beliefs but this other family cannot. Equality has to be practiced across the board, even for people we don’t agree with.
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I think this is a really great point.
Everyone things it’s okay to have an openly gay female teacher, and I am assuming (because I did read the original post) that to be open she has discussed her preferences and lifestyle with the children. However if a male heterosexual teacher were to do the same thing in front of 4th grade children I don’t think it would be approved of. I wouldn’t doubt that he would be called a pervert and a pedophile and probably loose his job.
You can’t have it both ways, you can’t say I have to accept your beliefs/opinions/lifestyles without allowing the same respect to me.
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Dude.
YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT SHE DID THAT.
I keep seeing this.
“How do they KNOW she is gay?”
None of you think it’s likely she might live with a women that has picked her up at school or that comes to faculty functions and EVERYONE ELSE MAKES IT THEIR BUSINESS IF SHE IS GAY OR NOT?
I am sorry but there is no way, unless Gretchen SAYS there have been allegations of her discussing it in front of children that I am going to assume that.
And sorry, saying “I am here with my partner” is NOT launching into a pro-gay platform.
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Loralee- I should not have used the word assumed, I apologize. In the orginal post (that was refrenced above as being deleted) it was said she was moved to this school for openly discussing her lifestyle at another.
So my question remains, would that be okay for a heterosexual male?
EXACTLY!! I was previously on a different blog with a woman calling her boyfriend her “partner”.
I did not read that Gretchen said the teacher said anything openly either!
And…if one thinks that another person will “become” gay because of being “exposed” to someone being gay or talking about anything having to do with homosexuality, you are so far off the edge it’s rediculous!
I think it’s making a big leap to assume that the teacher discusses her lifestyle with her students, simply based on the fact that everyone knows she’s gay. Growing up, the assistant principal of my middle school and high school was an open lesbian, but she *never* spoke about it to a student. Gossip gets around, people. One parent or family sees her holding hands with a woman at the mall, and soon enough everyone knows she’s gay. Or she has a picture of her partner on her desk. Or she references her partner or wife the way another female teacher would reference her husband when talking about going to the museum. Or her partner attends a school family function. None of this means she is discussing her lifestyle with 4th graders.
Then truly it would be no different than christians teaching the “meaning” of Christmas to my children. Right?
Its all about how you teach your children, and let them learn. You cannot “shield” them from gay people forever.
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Wow, there’s a lot going on here…I respect your beliefs, Gretchen, and your post was done tactfully- though I absolutely believe being gay is not a choice, and I disagree with your choice to shelter your kids and making it shameful to be gay. That being said, what exactly do you mean by
“…a gay teacher would be allowed to discuss her personal beliefs, …”
…to whom? …how is she doing this? Is she just not hiding the fact that she’s gay or is she getting into detail with her pupils about her sex life? These are two very different things. When you say she’s “openly gay”. How open? Discussing her sex life with students is absolutely wrong! But not hiding the fact that she’s gay is, in my opinion, just what she has a right to do as a human being.
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Who am I as a parent, to TELL them what their religion is, or what their beliefs on other things SHOULD be.
You’re their mother it is your job to give them guidance and structure here. They can choose to change their minds when they are older. Do you give them a choice about whether they can go to school or allow them to eat candy all day. I doubt it.
I think that it is good to teach children to think for themselves and that in concept we probably aren’t that far apart on this. But at the same time, I think that when they are young part of our responsibility is to provide a foundation and a structure for them to follow.
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I am a christian. Born and raised. Not very loosely either. I agree with and respect the right to your own opinion. Also to voice that opinion on your own blog, why not?! But… When you have a blog open to comments- you are going to get some that “hurt”. If you aren’t careing about the feeling you put out, niether should others. AND THAT’S ALL OK TOO.
Am I OK with gay? Yes. I believe, personally that people more often than not, are born with that orientation. Or it’s a result of abuse they could not help. I bet nearly 100% of gay people would be straight IF THEY COULD. It would be SO MUCH EASIER. Being Gay is a hard life to live.
As a christian, I DO believe it is PROBABLY God’s intention for them to deny their urges in pursuit of a christian lifestyle. Just as he does with pre-marital sex, murder, and the list goes on. None of us are perfect, and none of us are in a place to jusdge. I realize this is not what you are doing… I’m just sayin. I think you have the right to be concerned about any and every influence on your child. For sure.
I personally don’t have a problem with my sons having teachers from all walks of life because it will teach him love, compassion, and tolerance. If they don’t agree with a Christian lifestyle, then that’s their own free will (God gave it to them, and it’s not my right to take it away), and maybe then I should take a look at what I did wrong in our home as I raised them. It would take a darn lot of influence to sway a young child if they have a seriously rooted faith.
On a personal note- If either of my sons were to come out as gay in the distant future, I’d be OK with that too. I wouldn’t agree with the choice, but it wouldn’t change a dang thing about the way I feel about them. And even more deeply personal, I can tell you I have found women attractive (yes in that sort of way) since i was FIVE. So tell me people aren’t born that way? I DIDN’T EVEN KNOW what gay WAS at that age or anyone who was gay. But that’s something I leave outside my life in pursuit of my relationship with God. It can be done. But maybe more easily so for me as I am attracted to men as well. But seeing how hard it is to deny any urges like that… I can imagine how much harder it is when you just can’t “make it” straight. JMO….
Good for you for fiercely looking out for your kids.
I just want you to know I REALLY respect your view’s, its refreshing to see a christian who is open minded.
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Thanks- I keep saying to those I know how much it annoys me that so many christians are so judgemental, because they are NO BETTER! It totally gives the religion itself (which I think is a BEAUTIFUL thing) a REALLY bad name. Why would anyone want to WORSHIP (I mean really!?) a God whose followers are so nasty? Ugh…. I’m oviously not perfect in that department, but I at least for the most part am really open minded. I feel like however people want to live, it’s their life.
Oh man I wrote my comment @1 AM, and I was half asleep… and I can’t BELIEVE all the typos I made! lol
Very well said…and some great insight!
Jill, thanks so much for allowing space for other voices, and to you, Gretchen, for saying them so well. As you say, it’s your place to say what you think, and raise your kids the way you want in line with your belief systems. And I fully realize no one is going to change your mind on this any more than someone can change mine.
I understand the concern about getting pulled away from education in class, though I doubt those questions would come up in school often. In fact, I think often questions like that come up at home. (“Why is Miss Johnson going to have a baby? Why did Mrs. Bramer change her name to Miss Jones?”) And of course, that’s where you get to share your family beliefs.
I think it’s a disservice to students to hope that issues about families, etc. don’t come up at school. When our kids go out into the world they will, of course, not be surrounded by people who share our belief systems. And yet, they’ll need to know how to interact with them. By hoping they don’t encounter people with belief systems like yours in a leadership/teaching role is, in my opinion, doing them a disservice. I am not at all saying that (a) teachers should openly discuss their sexuality, whether heterosexual or homosexual or (b) you are considering you’re doing anything drastic like pulling your son out of this teacher’s class.
It’s one thing to say a person doesn’t share your belief system, and it’s quite another to say a person in authority doesn’t share your belief system, lowering her credibility in the eyes of a child raised in a family where the belief system is so important. It sets the stage, I believe, for stereotyping and unintentional bias in situations where sexual orientation has nothing to do with the matter at hand. And in the world we live in now and – in my opinion, hopefully – in increasing amounts as our children grow up, having an opinion that people who are gay are less credible than those who are not will be as bad as racist thoughts are today. (Again, not saying you said a lesbian teacher is less credible. Just that by raising concern about the issue and through discussions of gay being wrong in your family’s belief system, kids will make the logical connection that wrong=not as good and, therefore, not as credible.)
I am completely of the mind that families should be able to raise kids the way they want. And I applaud you for thinking through these issues so thoughtfully. I just wanted to raise my opinion that when we’re raising our kids the way we want, it’s important to really consider the world they do and will live in. Then to help them strike the balance between practicing your faith and allowing others whose lives intersect theirs to be who they want with the fair expectation they’ll be considered fairly, without prejudgment.
We all know being a mom isn’t easy, and there aren’t easy answers. Thanks, Jill, for providing a forum for fun and for serious consideration.
I couldn’t disagree with you more, but I RESPECT your opinion
As an athiest, I’m not going to have my kids surrounded by religion
But are they exposed to it? Sure. And we have open discussions about how all people are different. I do agree strongly with you that as a parent, it’s up to YOU when your child should be exposed to certain things, TV, cell phones, conversations about sex – unfortunately, it’s not always possible
I would like to respectfully add that, in my opinion, religion is a choice, a person’s sexuality is not
Good for you for putting your point across to thoughtfully and intelligently
(still think you’re wrong though….LOL!!)
JT
x
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Thanks for your very thoughtful and respectful comment Jenny.
And, for what it’s worth, I really just wrote this from the point of view of a mom who’s concerned about her son, and who’s influencing the choices he’s making at such a critical point in his life. I realize NOW is the time in his life where friends are starting to play an important role in his decisions and parents, less. Same with other adults – he’ll have more exposure to adults through sports, school (switching classes = more teachers), scouts, friends parents, etc. And, I worry what those adults are saying to him. I believe I’ve given him a solid foundation at home but I’m not going to pretend that other influences won’t affect him. I believe it’s natural for a parent to want their child to make decisions that are in line with their belief system. I also think it’s our role as parents to guide our children and their decisions (not make those decisions for them) and create boundaries for our children. I think I’m like any parent in that I worry when my child may decide to cross those boundaries. Thanks again for your kind words.
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What exactly do you mean by openly gay? As in not hiding it? You are in fact a bigot whether you articulate it well or not.
“Openly gay” is a common phrase used by millions of people, so we probably shouldn’t attack someone for using it in an obviously benevolent way.
Just because someone believes something is a sin against God does not make him or her a bigot. That is a gross misuse of the word bigot. She has said nothing in this post to make her sound intolerant.
She’s not a bigot, or at least you can’t have deferred that just from her post and comments here. She’s obviously trying her level best to be respectful and compassionate, which is a lot more than you’ve done here by calling her a name.
Alexis recently posted..gay marriage
okay then- she is a polite bigot.
just like the SS officer who says “‘please’ get on the train you Jew”– how polite.
WAKE UP! we are talking about a human being and her human rights- which in this day and age we are STILL fighting for– and YOU want civilised discourse??
because she is gay makes her less suitable for teaching than her straight counterparts? REALLY?? REEEELY??
Texas Mom- you really need to look deeper into what you hold as “christian’ beliefs– cuz you come across as an ignorant bigot- oh- but a polite one.
bless your heart-
Finally a voice of reason on this ridiculous blog. Amen.
If it’s so ridiculous, Ciera, why are you reading it? Is it a “voice of reason” because it’s Christian? If so, I’m sure Jesus would write a comment just like yours. He was always so derogatory, condemning, and disrespectful, you know?
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WWJD? Not leave a comment like this.
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My husband is agnostic and I’m a pagan witch, he was raised in the church. We have had many discussions on his view that our children must go to church to learn certian values and morals. Every time this is brought up, which is about once a month, I always ask him what values and morals can they learn in church that we cannot teach them at home? He never can answer that question
Every parent has the right to parent as they see fit. I personally like my children to be exposed to as many different cultures and lifestyles from birth on. Now my view on this did make my sister in law a little uncomfortable when her oldest daughter made a comment to me about church while they were down visiting for the weekend last summer. She later did tell me that she thought I explained my views to a 9 year old very well, in terms that she could understand.
I do think that if we choose to send our children to public schools we should be open to the fact that they are going to be exposed to other people and their lifestyles and we should be excepting of them.
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Marsha, I certainly don’t know your unique lifestyle, but if you can explain your views to a 9-year old very well, that’s definitely awesome.
And, just to be clear to a few other commenters, I’m not about my son letting me make his decisions. I’m not about keeping my son from the world so he can’t make his own decisions. I’m just kinda voicing my fears that I think, probably, EVERY mom has about giving their child to the world and trusting that they’ve taught their child enough to make good decisions for themselves. I worry about people influencing his decisions. And I really *DO* understand that it’s likely – no, it’s definite – that he’ll make decisions that I don’t agree with. That will happen. But as a parent, I want to give him the best role-models I can during his formative period. I think all moms would probably agree with that.
Thanks for your great response!
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Texas Mama,
First, thank you for voicing your opinions, as others have said. However, my problem with your premise is the assumption that being gay automatically makes someone a bad role model. This woman might very well be a very good role model, a fantastic teacher, an upstanding member of the community, and have a great deal to offer your child. But you are so stuck on her sexuality you can’t see that. That’s the problem. You aren’t helping your child at all by denying him access to people you assume to be bad without any real basis for that decision. You have commented numerous times that it’s wrong for someone to think that just because someone is Christian they are fantical and bad, yet you have over and over done the same thing to gay people.
For the record, I am gay. I was raised in a very conservative Christian household. And I was born this way. I don’t care what anyone “believes” about the “choice of being gay”, their opinion is worthless unless they have actually experienced the process.
We live in a society in which young gay children, because of the messages they are receiving from society and parents like you, kill themselves rather than face the truth. You say this is just to protect your child, but think about the long-term consequences if your child does turn out gay. You are setting that child up for a lifetime of misery and conflict that has, for many children, ended in suicide.
I was lucky that my parents, for all their conservatism, also believed in raising smart, self-aware kids. They raised me with the ability to thoroughly think about who I am and be who I am. Because of them, I’m strong enough to be gay in this society. I pray that your child is strong enough to think for themselves as they grow up and somewhere gain the tools to really think about what they believe and not just do what Texas Mama says they should. Good parenting is about raising children who can think for themselves and who make their decisions based on thoughtful analysis; it’s not about sheltering and brainwashing. Exposure to different things is a good thing.
I am a parent and my children actually go to a Catholic School. I am not Catholic nor religious at all, nor is my husband (yes, we are legally married. We live in a state that recognizes us as a family). But the education my children are getting is top notch. Do they get taught things I don’t agree with, every. single.day. and throughout their education from Kindergarten on. And that’s a good thing. It’s my job to put that information into context for them. To explain to them why others think differently than I do and why I think the way I do and to teach them to take that information and decide what they believe. Anything less is failing as a parent.
Robert
I wish you would link your profile to your blog!
And PS, before you say you don’t think gay people are bad (again), you most definitely are saying that even if not in the exact words. You are giving off that message regardless of how much you say you love the sinner hate the sin. The message is not about any particular sin, but rather about an entire class of people being bad simply because of who they are. It was not too long ago that the same language was used to justify such things as slavery, segregation, and more. You are creating a hostile environment for your children to grow up in, now and long after you are gone.
I wish I had one, Christy, but no time.
Really, not sure what people like Texas Mama are so afraid of. If they really got a glimpse into gay life, they’d find people who scramble to get kids out of bed in the morning, fed, and off to school; head to an office all day; get kids to soccer practice/music lessons/etc.; find time to go to make dinner for everyone; and make sure all homework is done before bed.
SCARY!!!!!!!!!! SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!! Seriously, the homosexual lifestyle is often just as boring and mundane as any other. Kids exposed to it might learn that gay people aren’t really any different, because we really really aren’t. Sheltering yourself and your children is easy; being gay in this country takes courage, tolerance takes courage.
When Christian Conservatives are denied the right to be a family, are denied the right to adopt, love, and raise the children the rest of society doesn’t want, when Christian Conservatives are unceremoniously driven out of the military because of the unfounded fears of non-Christians, then I’ll take seriously their complaints about their rights and beliefs not being respected.
I’m Mormon, Robert, so I guess most people would call me a conservative Christian (although I don’t necessarily call myself conservative). I just wanted to tell you that I think you are wonderful. Your comment is everything I would hope for from a gay person who is trying to show the world what being gay really is.
I myself am conflicted about homosexuality because of my fairly orthodox upbringing, and in fact i just blogged about this very thing a few days ago. But your comment has done more to color my view of the world as gay people see it than anything else I’ve ever heard or read. So thank you for taking the time to form an intelligent response that sounds like it is full of love rather than hate or defensiveness.
You are a gem. And now I’m done.
Alexis recently posted..gay marriage
Thanks, Alexis. For the record, I think you are pretty awesome too.
Well, I try so hard. :)
Alexis recently posted..gay marriage
RObert, YOU ROCK
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Robert, I’d like to tell you that I do not think gay people are bad people. It would be the truth. It sounds like you will not believe me no matter what I say, though. I’m sorry to hear that. Because when you say you know what I think, that’s like me saying I know what you think.
Do you believe I know what you think?
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I never said I know what you think. I said the message of your words is that gay people are bad. You can’t tell a child gay is wrong and not have them believe gay people are bad people. You can’t have society say gay people don’t deserve fundamental rights and then expect that society to not lash out at gay people (or immigrants, or black people, or … the list goes on and on). Your actions aren’t just about your child, they have repercussions throughout society. The five gay kids who killed themselves in the past month after being bullied are point and fact. The kids who bullied them and think it’s OK to pick on gay people didn’t pick that up from a tolerant society, they got it from a society that consistently re-enforced in them that gay is wrong, that gays aren’t like “normal” people and therefore don’t deserve the same treatment.
Whether you like it or not, that is EXACTLY the message you are giving your children and helping to perpetuate in society.
Until you’ve walked a mile in my shoes, which you most definitely have not, you really have no rights whatsoever to condemn gays for who they are, which is exactly what you are doing, no matter how much you try to couch your language.
Very well articulated, Robert. Your point about the message Texas sends her kids is spot on. Texas very clearly says in her blog that she should be able to choose her kid’s role model’s and she obviously doesn’t believe that gay people are fit to fill those shoes. Actions speak much louder than words, Texas. Especially to our kids. While you tell them “love the sinner, hate the sin” it is really difficult for anybody to be sincere about that, because how can we love somebody who is doing something we hate?
Brilliant Robert, just brilliant. You SHOULD have a blog.
Robert – Everything you said is so perfectly true. I hope your words are given serious consideration. While most people don’t ‘intentionally’ spread the message of intolerance, it happens all the time.
When Christian Conservatives are denied the right to be a family, are denied the right to adopt, love, and raise the children the rest of society doesn’t want, when Christian Conservatives are unceremoniously driven out of the military because of the unfounded fears of non-Christians, then I’ll take seriously their complaints about their rights and beliefs not being respected.
WOW!! You hit the nail on the head- well done- well done.
cheers!
the Queer Lady AshEfield
I’m sensing from both your post and the comments you’ve written that you think being gay is something you can be influenced into to being. And that you think a gay person can’t be a good role model. And to either of those points I just have no words.
I’m not sure how you consider my lifestyle unique. Paganism is the basis for most of Christianity’s views and holidays. Other than I do not believe the bible to be more than a bunch of stories, my life is just like anyone else, well pretty much lol. It wasn’t hard to explain to a 9 year old. I simply told her that I did not go to church because I wasn’t a Christian. When she asked if I believed in God, I told her that I believed that there were many Gods, and that the main one was a Goddess. And that Goddess was Mother Nature. She asked a couple more questions which I answered in simple terms and it was not brought up again.
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Because most people don’t take the time to actually understand Christianity or where their holidays originated. It’s funny. I went to a Christian college, married a “hippie” boy who knew a lot about world religions and taught me more about Christianity than I learned at the fundamentalist college. If Christians knew that Jesus wasn’t born in the winter…… Whoa! Watch out!
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I have two thoughts on this. First, you stated that a person’s religious beliefs or lack thereof SHOULD be at a person’s core. Ugh. Who are you to say what should be at someone’s core or not?
You have a bunch of kids. What if one (or more) is gay?! Or if your future grandchild are gay? Would you change your tune. I certainly hope so.
I’m not even going to bother reading the other comments. This post was just too depressing to me, and I’m sure many of the comments would be too.
Thank you so much for this post Grethen and to Scarymommy for hosting it. I align much more closely with Gretchen and appreciate how she articulated her position. I think Gretchen already anticipates that her children may not fully embrace everything she wants them to value. The point is not wether your child is gay or not (or Christian or not) but wether or not you as a parent did your best to raise them with a foundation of morals and values. I don’t know why this is so often asked. I feel that any parent would love and embrace their child for who they are regardless if it’s different from how you raised them, but even more so knowing you fulfilled your calling as a parent to raise that child the way you felt was best.
“I realize that my influence will only go so far and at some point in the very near future, my children will have opinions of their own and will probably reject everything I’ve ever taught them. That’s part of adolescence and to be expected. But I would be a failure as a parent if I didn’t try to give my child some moral and ethical values as a foundation on which to build their opinions.”
Well said Gretchen.
Scary Mommy, I adore you and love your Society (working on a post as a non-blogger!) but am upset to see this, here of all places. If you disagree so, why post it?
I struggled with that a bit, but what kind of forum would this be if I only post things I relate to 100%? I’d like to hope that this can be a place where people present different view points and we can agree to disagree. And maybe even learn something once in a while.
I applaud your decision to post it. I think you are generating a really interesting, mostly respectful discussion here. And using your blog for purposes of good–allowing people to try to understand one another and have a meaningful discourse. Good for you.
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I am glad to see different points of view here. We are all different and hearing different views helps us grow as a person.
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I agree with Jen. Different is ok.
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Unless of course you are a fourth grader with a gay teacher, then a different point of view is hurtful and doesn’t help you grow as a person.
HA! Seriously Robert. I wish you would run for Governor/President…SOMETHING. You are well spoken and Intelligent and hit it spot on every.single.time.
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I think you are absolutely right to post this. It would be one thing if she were spouting hateful words and gay-bashing, but she’s not. She’s offering her perspective and viewpoint, and it’s in a very well-written and respectful manner. Kudos to you for having the guts to post something that you don’t necessarily agree with.
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umm- i don’t know you- at all– and i’ve been here only a few times-
but what i find MOST upsetting- is how everyone keeps saying we need discourse and civility- WTF??
if this mother were really being honest- it’s not just us queers she’d want out of the classroom- it would be people of other religions as well.
are you kidding me? this is AMERICA people! hate to tell you- but it ain’t a Christain nation- shit half of the founding fathers were against organised religion-
TOLERANCE!! Texas mom can believe and teach her children whatever she pleases- but in NO way should we as a society allow her to oppress others- no matter how sweetly she disguises her hate.
and really- only wanting to surround yourself with like minded people- and not open yourself to all the glories, differences, and beauty of the world. sad. sad little insecure life.
i think presenting this as another valid view is playing into their hands- ain’t nothing christian- nor moral about denying human rights.
The was a well put view. As I am a free bird and don’t have a religion stand point, I too can understand your thoughts. I try to show my children all views when it comes to religion, it is my choice to feel how I feel and I want them to be able to make their own choice.
As to the teacher, I was concerned as to how/why the teachers love life was even known to the students. I don’t even know if my 5th graders teacher is married or anything personal-oh except she likes to scrap book. A teachers personal life is their personal life and should NOT be discussed in a class room setting, especially a 4th grade class.
All that and I spelled Gretchens name wrong in the first sentence – my apologies.
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I am an atheist but my eldest daughter (8) believes in God. This is probably due to her teachers and only time will tell as to whether she continues to have faith as she grows up. I do not share my religious stand point with her as she needs the freedom to listen to her heart and make that decision for herself.
The one thing that confuses mr is that you must assume that being gay is a choice and therefore if your kids respect and like their teacher they too may choose to be gay. What turns us on is not a conscious choice so I don’t understand quite what the problem is.
What I would stress though is that if you undermine the teacher I.e by telling the kids that something she says is wrong or inappropriate you risk them losing respect for her and indeed for school – that will lead to more problems than whether or not she is a lesbian.
Hi Monika. Just for clarification, I have supported this teacher, both to herself personally as well as to my child. I think she’s a great teacher, and I have told my child as much. That is precisely my point: let education stay in education. She has made the choice to be open with her sexuality, as she has the right to do. However, that discussion has no place for a classroom. It has not come up, but this post was my written-out thoughts about my concerns that her sexuality may come up in class and, because of her strong feelings about it, she may not deflect discussion about it.
I don’t believe I ever said that being gay is a choice. I never went there. And, for the record, I don’t think it’s a choice. But I do think it’s a choice whether or not that teacher tells her students.
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Texan Mama can you clarify something for me?
You have said she is “openly gay”, but you have also said that the discussion of her sexuality has not come up in class. How does everyone know she is gay if she hasn’t spoken about it in class? Is there too much gossip on the part of adults? Gossip, after all, is a sin.
Also, if the teacher was Muslim and wore a hijab, would you have the same problems? Jewish? Every other person in this world is NOT a conservative Christian, so your choice of sending your child to a public school means that they will be exposed to different adults AND children. And do you know what your children will probably really learn from being “exposed” to different view points?
Tolerance and love.
Which is something we Christians forget to practice, even though we preach it.
I would have a problem with a teacher if she or he came to school and taught anything other than what’s in the curriculum.
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Then would you rather have your children taught by robots? It’s robots or homeschooling – that is the only way you’re going to get either a)completely non-biased teaching or b)only bias that you’re concerned with. Sorry Texan Mama, you have no legs to stand on. I understand that you’re trying to protect your children from perspectives other than your own, but you really think such insulation is good for your kids? In the long-run, really?!When they get into high school and they meet another kid who is gay, and then they say “Oh, being gay is wrong, Mommy told me so.” That child has just been harrassed by YOUR child because of your teaching. How can you live with perpetuating such animosity in future generations? I just wonder if you know what you’re doing.
So she hasn’t taught outside the curriculum.
But you didn’t answer any of the questions. How do you know she’s gay? If your teacher was a female Muslim and wore a hijab, how would you react? Its fine to have faith beliefs and to raise your children in the same religious ideas, I’m doing exactly that, but you also have to know that you cannot control the world and there will always be differing viewpoints.
I understand what you’re really writing about, I have seen your comments that you can still like/care for/appreciate someone who makes different choices than the ones you’d make, but if you want to take advantage of a government program (public school) you have to play by their rules, and that means accepting people who are different from you.
Because the teacher is open about it. She was teaching a different grade and at that level she was required to teach sex education. At that time the school made the decision to move her. I don’t have all the details, but I know his is how Gretchen knows.
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ok, but even in a Catholic school, we had sex education and we learned the difference between homosexual and heterosexual. Homosexuals exist. They just “are”. You can’t avoid it.
There’s an amazing assumption that only a gay person would talk about their sexuality in any way in the classroom. WTF? Is there not a boundary for what’s age-appropriate in your area?
And if her sexuality came up as part of the curriculum in another class– and that’s how you know she is gay — wait, were you planning to take your kids out of that class? So you have a school system that teaches that homosexuality exists but you don’t want your kids to know that?
And how do you explain to your kids that you support this teacher but don’t want her to teach them?
The more I learn about your point of view, Gretchen, the more totally confused I get. The more you explain, the more tangled up you get. Your kids know this. Is their reaction to your ideas what’s sparked this post? LISTEN TO THEM.
I learn a lot by explaining things to my kid — sometimes I learn that my assumptions are wrong. Simplifying things and answering “why” has a way of showing us where there is no logic. And yes, even beliefs must have internal logic.
I think if you listen to yourself, you’ll find you’re saying two different things, and one of them is based in love and acceptance.
I have enough respect for you to think that you might learn that your actual point of view is not what you think it ought to be.
If I’m wrong — well, then, you don’t deserve my respect. Sorry, but it’s true. I don’t respect bigots. I can’t. I won’t. If you really believe what you believe, you’d have a simple explanation that a 4th grader could understand.
Parenting is hard, and the world hurts. That’s why we have religion to help us understand it better — when religion clouds it up, that’s a sign of something.
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I’m not saying it was the right thing to do. I’m saying this is Texas and that kind of stuff happens here… unfortunately. That’s how the parents found out. I’m not sure how the information got around, but it did.
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Really? WOuld you have a hard time if a teacher taught while pregnant? Would that teacher NEVER be allowed to TALK about the expected baby? Would that teacher be pushing her agenda on her class?
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Wait. You agree that being gay is not a choice, but you believe they should….. what? Live a lonely and celibate life? You agree that being gay is not a choice, so you believe, essentially, that God made them that way, but….what? Is testing them? That if they live the way God made them they are wrong? You agree that being gay is not a choice, but you don’t want your son exposed to the lifestyle because….why? He might choose it?
I honestly do not get this.
And, HOW is any kind of love wrong? I know I’m not going to change your opinion, but this Conservative Christian mindset blows my mind and breaks my heart. I have close friends who have been in a committed gay relationship for ten years. I honestly think that many heterosexual couples could take some pointers from them. They are truly committed. Their love for each other is apparent. They happen to be the same sex. Love is love is LOVE. What is EVER wrong with love?
When my 4 y/o daughter says she’s going to marry her best (girl)friend and asks me if that’s OK? I smile and tell her, “You should marry who you love, sweetie.”
Because, more than anything, what I want my daughter exposed to is love, tolerance and acceptance.
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clap clap clap clapping away!!!
“Because, more than anything, what I want my daughter exposed to is love, tolerance and acceptance.” I could not agree more.
One of my four year old boys told me that he is going to marry his best boy friend because “you get married when you love someone”. Thats right! And I just smile and say, “that’s great!”
Also, this was a really good read today: http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/homophobia_it_hurts_straight_people_too#share_source=blog-top_fb
It has not come up, but this post was my written-out thoughts about my concerns that her sexuality may come up in class and, because of her strong feelings about it, she may not deflect discussion about it.
I want to be sure I am reading this correctly- she NEVER brought it up in the classroom but because she feels she has as much right to be herself as you do to be yourself you are concerned that IF one of the kids says something she won’t lie and pretend she’s something she’s not?
Please tell me I’m reading this wrong, I probably just haven’t had enough coffee yet for my brain to filter it properly- love some clarification because I am probably not the only one who will read it this way.
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I think you’ve articulated your point of view very well. Here is the thing I’m thinking: just because someone is heterosexual doesn’t mean she or he will share your belief system or your values. It seems, to me, that you are too focused on sex. If you are a conservative Christian, your child may actually get a more “Christian” world view from a teacher whose partner is the same sex than a teacher who is living a heterosexual life. There is more to a person than who they sleep with or build a life with. Your child may have a teacher who is openly bitter, angry, gives some kids preferential treatment, allows bullying and injustice in the classroom, makes negative comments about a student’s performance or appearance, and consider himself a “conservative Christian.” Perhaps their marriage is on the rocks, too. Or you can have a teacher who teaches kids about justice and fairness, the golden rule (a big one for Jesus), treating others with respect and equality, and that teacher may happen to be a lesbian.
Like I said, you’re way too hung up on the sex and not the overall moral behavior. Furthermore, it would seem that you could use a teacher who has a different lifestyle as an opportunity to teach your son about loving everyone, “do unto others,” which is Jesus’ (and I wish Christians’) core message.
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Where’s the “like” button on my blog? I like this comment.
I love this comment! I do not agree with Gretchen’s point of view but then again, she would not agree with mine. Isn’t that the beauty of life? The ability to agree and disagree with people but still find a way to get along and move through life together. Especially when it only benefits OUR children? As far as I am concerned, my kids teachers could be straight, gay, purple, tall, short, fat, skinny, etc. I don’t care. What I DO care about is my child getting the best possible education they can to help them move through life and help them to become productive and happy adults. I believe all schools (at least ours do here) have a protocol that all teachers must follow regardless of sexuality, religion, politics etc. My children have had gay teachers, they have had straight teachers. Both were and are awesome teachers. More importantly – they are awesome people. People I am proud to say have been in my child’s life and influenced them in whatever they taught them. My kids are open minded, thoughtful, caring, not afraid to stand up for what they believe in, and are raising their kids to be do the same. I would like to say that I can take all the credit for that but I can not. With my kids in public school so I can work to support them the teachers became their main care givers during the day. I was comfortable with that as I was comfortable with the teachers.
If you are not comfortable with that then you need to explore other options for your child and their teacher. Maybe a religious school that your church runs or home schooling?
Great post and I love the discussion this has opened up. Again – agree to disagree but finding a way to live together to better our children. The way it should be.
Jana- What a great comment!
Gretchen- I’m a follower of your blog. At the core, I disagree with almost everything you have said in this post… but I enjoy you as a blogger and you seem like a good person. You articulated yourself very well in this case.
I’m going to throw this out there as an option. I understand religion and instilling that at an early age. But what do you view as being the most important parts of instilling a “Christian world view” in your children? Because you have your children enrolled in public school I am going to make the assumption that you are okay with the fact that they are not going to teach your kids about the Bible or belief in God & Jesus Christ. So, what expectations do you have of the values you want instilled in your child from their teachers? What will live up to your standards of having your child exposed to the Christian world view that you believe in? Do you view it as teaching them compassion, to do unto others, acceptance, love & kindness? Because I had plenty of heterosexual teachers in my time who didn’t do a particular stellar job of teaching with those beliefs.
So I’m going to argue that as long as your child’s teacher is showing those kinds of values in her lessons and her demeanor, then it should not matter whether or not she is gay or lesbian.
A little backstory on me. My parents were raised staunch catholics. My dad was an altar boy, they went to catholic school their whole life, etc. They raised us with a looser grip on religion. We went to church (sometimes), I had my communion, and we learned lessons from the bible but it wasn’t the pillar of our childhood. What they did do was bring us up to be good, loving and accepting people.
You know my parents never shared their political beliefs with us growing up? They never let us know who they voted for. They would explain to us both sides and let us watch parts of political debates when we were of an appropriate age but it wasn’t until I voted in my first election that I got a definitive answer about their political leanings. I think its amazing way to raise your kids because all 3 of us grew up with varying beliefs. One of my sisters found the Methodist Church where she is a Youth Minister. She devotes her life to the church and is very moderate to conservative in her beliefs. Then there’s me who is far left leaning and not religious at all. At the end of the day we are two totally different people but our moral compass is pointing in the same direction.
The point of my stream of consciousness babble here is that one of your kids could turn out to be agnostic, gay, atheist or ultra liberal. They may not. But they might.
So at the end of the day, shouldn’t we be more focused on the message coming from the people our children are exposed to and not their sexual orientation?
Well said Jana. And, I will tell you that I do teach my kids to love everyone.
I think this is a perfect opportunity to explain my point of this post clearer: It is possible to love someone and care about them without agreeing with their behavior. I have a male in our family who I *ADORE*. He is so so very special to me. Yet, he lives with his girlfriend. I also do not agree with this lifestyle and I would not expose my kids to it either. Doesn’t mean I love him any less. Doesn’t mean I think he’s a bad person. Doesn’t change a thing! He’s just making a choice that I don’t agree with and I feel that, as a parent to children who look to this man as an example of behavior, I will not be taking my kids to see him in his apartment with his girlfriend since we don’t agree with that. They are welcome in our house. They are welcome to do what they want. And I am welcome to disagree with them and love them.
I hope this helps explain how I find it possible to support this teacher yet at the same time disagree with her choice of how to live her life. I’m am perfectly fine with her teaching my son but I don’t really want her expounding on what is “right” and “wrong” to my children…. any more than you’d want *ME* telling your children what’s right or wrong. LOL
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Huh. That is a very good example, and it helped me understand what you mean.
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Jana,
YES.
I am way late to the conversation, as usual (darn work), but I just posted a question to Texan Mama along the same lines… how could it possibly be that she could be assured that the other teachers who teacher her children in public schools are ‘supporting’ her value system? That simply makes no sense. It is very possible that her child has already had, or will have, a heterosexual teacher who has values that are very different from her families. And yet it seems to me that this situation would create much less concern on her part.
Thanks for saying that in a way more articulate way than I did. :)
-Becca
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I have to say that I am thankful that Jesus didn’t limit his love by deliberately surrounding himself “like-minded” folk.
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Pardon me. That should have read **with** “like-minded” folk.
I’m in keyboard competition with another pair of little hands.
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You are such a wise Grasshoppa!
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No. I’m really not. I just happen to LOVE people. All people. And their differences are what make them beautiful. I embrace the diversity our world has to offer and I believe any higher power would encourage us to do so. And if you happen to believe in Jesus and what he represents, I believe his heart leaned toward knowing, loving, and embracing all people.
And if you don’t believe in Jesus, I still think diversity and texture make this world go ’round, baby!!
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love all of this and want to keep it in my pocket.
“I still think diversity and texture make this world go ’round.”
Yes! This is what I felt in my heart when Jill was nervous about this post. It’s about love! Lover of all people here no matter what faith they practice or what color their skin or what sexuality they are. I too struggled with the “like-minded” piece of this post. I actually think it is much healthier to meet different people andlearn about the world and how to deal with differences at a young age.
Not trying to be all patchouli and dancing here – but its all love.
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You can love someone with all your heart and soul and still disagree with a decision he or she makes.
We are going around and around the same burning bush here. We keep coming back to the same two arguments.
Is it wrong to have sex with someone of the same sex?
We’re probably not going to come to consensus on this.
Are gay people born gay?
We’re probably not going to come to consensus on this.
Okay, I’m gonna go there… are you sure you love EVERYONE? Even people who disagree with your core beliefs?
SO, you’d be okay with your child being surrounded by people like ME?
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OK, I was just passing through and now I have to chime in –
I send my son to a Christian school (I was raised Catholic, my husband was raised Jewish and we are probably more Buddist than anything) because I believe the overall atmosphere is better for him on many levels (he has a physical disability and the size of the school is better, plus he works better with more personal attention). He takes religion every day, goes to chapel every Wednesday. Does this thrill me? No. But I think it’s good for him to be exposed to other belief systems. We have discussions about how people believe other things and how it’s all OK. And about how we believe how you treat others is much more important than anything.
As much as you’d like to, you don’t have complete control over what your children are exposed to; the world slips in. The best you can do is help them put it all in perspective according to your beliefs.
On that note, I really don’t understand what the problem is here. My son is in sixth grade and in all the time he’s been in school, I haven’t had the slightest idea of his teachers’ sex lives have been like (nor do I care to). I can’t imagine it comes up in fourth grade that much.
“SO, you’d be okay with your child being surrounded by people like ME?”
About 70% of Americans identify as Christian. My son is surrounded by “people like [you]“. Maybe not as conservative, but imagine, for a moment, how it feels to be a non-Christian in America. Imagine listening to politicians trot out their religion as a selling point, a religion which actively condemns non-believers to Hell. Imagine knowing that a state populated by very devout believers in a religion that you disagree with (TX) has such buying power that textbooks across the country start to reflect the views of those very people with whom you disagree. Imagine living as a religious minority in your country. Because all of us who are not Christian are a minority. And we are surrounded, inescapably. And we tolerate teachers wearing jewelry with crosses on it. We accept that the President must talk about his faith. We live, daily, with reminders, of our status as outsiders and with the fear that the wingnuts who call out for more Christianity in our society will win out and we will be persecuted for our lack of faith.
And most of us just say to our children “Yes. That person goes to that church. We do not.” It’s simple to live among those with whom you disagree. Internal strife is not required to cope with that idea.
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Rebekah, I LOVE you for saying all this. I think it all the time but never say anything. I have to deal with hearing, reading, and seeing religious rhetoric ALL. THE. TIME: on the radio, around your necks, from politicians mouths, in the papers, etc., because that’s the world we live in. Even though it grates against every fiber of my being. I could not be *more* against organized religion, and yet, there’s nothing I can do except just accept it and know this is the way of the world. I know this is off-topic, but I had to thank you for your comment.
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and, lest we forget, God is even on our currency — “In God We Trust”!
Perfectly put. Thank you for that.
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Rebekah – what an insightful and interesting viewpoint. I’m a long way away from you and watch with astonishment at the lack of separation between Church and State in your country and it’s interesting to hear from someone in the minority.
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THAT is a really fantastic point, Grasshoppa, and it’s what our family has been dealing with this year as our eldest son started kindergarten at a public school. I am nervous for him to be in such an “open” environment, where someone else is leading and guiding him, and where he might come home from school and ask “Why does so and so have 2 mommies?”. I do NOT want to shelter my kids, but I DO want to protect them, and teach them what we believe–which is that we love everyone, and so does Jesus–and give them the tools to think for themselves. Plus, I want my kids to be able to be an example. I don’t want them constantly surrounded by Christianity, because, to be honest, Christian culture is all kinds of messed up. There have to be positive influences in their lives, and we have that for sure, but to be completely surrounded by people who belief just as we do, totally negates what Jesus called us to do– go out and tell people about Him. Some might think a 5 year old can’t make a difference, but when I was 5, I got my swimming teacher to go back to church simply because I talked about Jesus all the time. Our kids can make a difference. I’m not putting a whole lot of pressure on him to do that though. I am putting pressure on him to uphold our values, like “a friend loves at all times”, and that we stand up for friends who are being bullied, etc., and we don’t discriminate because someone’s eyes are a different shape, or their skin is a different color than ours etc. We love. Period, because that’s what Jesus would do.
The fact of the matter is that homsexuality isn’t going to just disappear. It’s become progressively more and more of a part of our society, and that’s going to continue to be the case. I was never faced with it growing up, but my kids will be, and their kids will be too.
The best that I can do as a Christian parent is to teach my kids our values and live them out in front of them, and never stop praying for their little hearts. We do not discriminate, while we may not share the same beliefs, there is no reason why we can’t coexist peacefully.
ALL that said, I would be ticked if it became an issue in his class where teachers were spouting their own beliefs and practices, on any issue–gay, abortion, sex, politics, etc.
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Best. response. today. Thanks, Grasshoppa.
For most of my childhood my father was an Assembly of God minister. As a direct result of growing up going to church a minimum of 3 times a week and living in a fish bowl as a pastor’s kid, I do not believe in organized religion. I do not believe in a system in which people go to church on Sundays and ask forgiveness for all the shit they do the rest of the week. It’s as if they think that sitting in a church once a week absolves them of their evil, backstabbing conniving ways. I’ve seen the dirty underbelly of the church. It ain’t pretty.
I also cannot be on board with any religion that preaches that we are not to judge others, yet condemns anyone who believes differently than they do to hell. Wait, I thought we weren’t supposed to judge. You can’t have it both ways. I won’t subscribe to the do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do mentality. The hypocrisy of organized religion is astounding. I choose to not be a part of it. And while you’ve been eloquent and respectful with your arguments, there is still the undercurrent of judgment. It’s not your job to judge your son’s teacher for being gay. Your only concern with her should be her ability to teach; not who she goes home to every night. You’ve stated you fear that she will bring up her sexual orientation in class. Has she? If she does, then you have a right to be upset, but not until then. If you didn’t know she was gay, would you even think about her beyond the curriculum she teaches?
That doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in anything. I just choose to believe in a higher power that doesn’t judge and doesn’t condemn people just for being different. I live by the Golden Rule (most of the time) and teach my son to do so as well. I do think it is naive to think that your children won’t be exposed to values that differ from yours. It’s your job as a parent to educate them on those differences. To teach them acceptance, compassion and understanding. To teach them that just because someone has a different belief system than they do or prefers to love people of the same gender that it doesn’t make them bad people. If you choose to keep them in a bubble you do them a huge disservice. They will not always live under your protective roof and it’s your job as a parent to teach them the skills they need to live in a diverse world.
From a fellow PK who had my tush in church 4 nights a week I just wanted to wave and say hi!
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Okay, this is what I was afraid of. I NEVER said she was a bad person. I NEVER said she is a bad teacher. She simply makes choices about her personal life that I do not agree with. And I think it’s my job to tell my children to understand the difference between people and their choices. People = goood. Choices = can be good or bad.
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texan mama- first, thank you for not bringing the bible into it as your defense and actually ellaborating on your point of view beyond that. it is refreshing to see that.
i believe that even though you said you don’t think she is a bad person, you did imply that she was not a good role model for your children. it is the implied meaning of that and maybe you can elaborate on that more. HOW is she not a good role model? is she a good teacher? is she a loving person? does she care about the children in her classroom? if you can answer yes to all of these questions than she sounds like an awesome role model to me.
also, how is homosexuality a “bad” choice, let alone a choice at all? and even if i go along with the view that it IS a choice, how is loving someone, no matter what the person’s gender, ever a “bad” choice? even as an agnostic and someone that was raised catholic i believe that the core value of any religion is LOVE.
Hi Erin
This is what I’m concerned about (as I wrote above):
Would you be concerned that her belief system, one that guides her own daily thoughts and decisions, might consciously or subconsciously slant her teaching and her daily interactions with children, especially your child?
If she *IS* able to keep her personal life and professional life separate, I’ll be a happy camper. I know it’s not fair that a heterosexual can talk about her husband without anyone batting an eye, but a lesbian cannot talk about her partner without creating a big ruckus. I just think we have to consider the audience that’s listening.
To directly answer your question: any teacher who promotes their personal beliefs in class their personal agenda and presents it as TEACHING would be a bad role model. And, on a separate tangent, if my son’s teacher were a Conservative Christian who was living with her boyfriend, my post would have read exactly the same. Exactly. Not because people who live with their boyfriends out of wedlock are bad people – but because it’s a life choice my family does not agree with.
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if you have an issue with the teacher bringing their personal life into the classroom then that is your issue (and i agree with that), not whether that person is gay or straight or short or tall or gosh darn purple. period. but it seems to me that this kind of thinking, (you state “if she *IS* able to keep her personal life and professional life separate”, why wouldn’t she be able to?) implies that gay people don’t know boundaries or what is morally exceptable in their job and is the same kind of thinking out of which ridiculous ideas such as all gay men are child molestors.
in all honesty, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. i am after all the kind of mom who went with her husband and son last year to the equality march and let her son march with all the gays because we believe that all anyone is looking for in the world is love and happiness and the right for their life and their family to have as much value as ours. gays are not monsters and gays are not second class citizens.
ugh! sorry for all the spelling/grammar errors and sentences that end out of nowhere. that is what happens when i try to multi-task (not very well, obviously) while at work.
TM (texas mama),
As I am fishing through these comments, I want to say that I sort of get where you’re coming from {at least at the beginning}. Very simply put: all moms are concerned about the people and things their kids are exposed to. You’re concerned. Moms everywhere are concerned. I get it. Everyone is in agreement.
But it doesn’t end there.
I think what’s happened, as this conversation has become more elaborate or drawn out is that you’re trying to couch your “stance” that this is just about one’s choices or beliefs or differences. And you’re entitled to feel as such. But you’re saying:
Would you be concerned that her belief system, one that guides her own daily thoughts and decisions …?
Being a homosexual is a not a belief system. It is not a choice, as Robert so kindly reminded us.
How is her partnership guiding her daily life? How is her partnership guiding the morning arithmetic lesson? Changing the reading assignment? Skewing the homework? I can’t imagine her lesbian life at home with a picket fence and maybe a dog (because she’s not able to marry or adopt) seriously impedes upon her lesson plans. And you’re implying that it would. Simply posing the question suggests guilt.
“Teaching” about her personal life (religion, politics, etc.) I think we’ve all agreed is crossing the line. But when asked what she did for the weekend, I don’t think for ONE SECOND this woman should be shoved into the closet and censored. I think she should say, “my partner and I went to the movies and saw …. ” Why should she (and billions of other gays) live in the shadows because parents like you are too terrified of using this as a teaching moment. Her personal life doesn’t need to be CURRICULUM. But her existence on this planet, and an explanation of her “difference” is a moment for you to discuss this with your children. This is no different than your children seeing a man wearing a yarmulke in the grocery store and asking what it is, correct?
I think the point many people are trying to make is that people having same-sex partners should not create “a ruckus”. We should live in a world where everyone is able to use appropriate pronouns for their significant others without societal backlash. It’s only “a ruckus” because somemothers have control issues and some members of organized religions live in fear of others.
You are simply asking – any way you want to fancy it up – that gays who live within a certain radius of your home, for fear of serving as poor role models for your children, live permanently in the closet. “Undoing” this choice of theirs or denying what god (or the heavens or whatever) has created is like asking black people to be … to just be less black. “If all those colored people would just be less obvious. If you would wear long sleeves and maybe straighten your hair, hell get contacts while you’re at it too, thanks. *phew* I’m so much more comfortable when you act less black. Just try to hide it a bit, ok? I’m not sure it’s the best example for my children. You’re being different and all.”
That’s the request you’re making of his teacher.
Just be less of you please.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Sara. So very well said. Amen and Hallelujah!
Awesome comment- very well said.
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I believe that a heterosexual teacher would be more apt to discuss her sexuality than a lesbian teacher. Simply because the heterosexual teacher knows that her way of life is accepted. I don’t think you need to worry about your child’s teacher discussing her girlfriend, her dates, etc. Unfortunately, she knows TO HER CORE that discussing her life would probably get her in trouble. Whereas a heterosexual woman would have no problem discussing her upcoming wedding, pregnancy, etc.
So I think a discussion on sexuality is the last thing you need to be concerned with. Especially at the elementary level. Do I believe that she has the right to discuss her personal life? Absolutely! But I also believe most homosexuals in the public eye are naturally cautious. (With good reason)
I hope for the day when NO ONE’S sexuality is an issue. When your child’s teacher CAN mention her girlfriend/wife without causing anyone to bat an eyelash. And yes, I do strongly believe that day is coming.
I can agree with wanting your children to be surrounded by people who share your belief system. I feel the same way. But it’s just not a possibility in today’s day and age, no matter how hard you try. I mean, I guess you could live in a hut in the middle of nowhere, but that’s a tad unrealistic. As it stands, we are SO connected as a society. Your kids will be exposed to so many different things that you have no control over. The only control you have is making sure that your kids know where they stand. If you’ve raised them right, then you should have no concerns. :)
Thanks for making me think a little this morning–I still vehemently disagree with your opinion, but you’re right–we’re all parents trying to do right by our kids. As long as you’re not putting a “GOD HATES GAYS” sign in their hands, we’re good. :)
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I’m glad I took the time to read through the comments because now I can just say: THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS instead of trying to write out my thoughts in a coherent way.
Oh my gosh. Those signs need to burn.
Julie recently posted..And the Winners Are
I must say that I was raised in such a household as yours. My parents are highly conservative Christians, never let me watch shows such as The Simpsons, Married with Children, and Roseanne due to the “questionable morals” that they taught. So when I read what you, I can just close my eyes and almost have flash backs of my childhood.
I’m a proud gay man that’s been in a stable relationship for the past 9 years and my childhood, after I came out, was pure, unadulterated hell. I’m not going to elaborate on the details, because they are irrelevant. But what you are going to put your children through, if they end up being gay and telling them that who and what they are, are wrong, will psychologically confuse and cause a disgusting amount of pain. You have no idea how many times I wanted to kill myself and brought myself so close to slitting my wrists because I WAS MADE WRONG. You have no idea how that screws up someone’s head and to bring that potentiality upon your children scares me.
And I’ll be frank, if you’re so concerned with your children and them being exposed to the outside world, I would strongly suggest home schooling. God forbid they see two gay men skipping, holding hands, outside. You should definitely home school them to protect them.
You state over and over again that you don’t hate gays, and maybe you don’t. But you treat us like disfigured, immoral monsters. I’m not sure that what you’re doing is any worse.
And, at @Scarymommy, I’m actually saddened you allow this to be posted on your blog. Shame really.
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Word, kadield.
My best friend in the world is a lesbian. If something were to happen to my husband and I, our children will go to her. Not my staunchly conservative Southern Baptist family. Not my other best friend, who believes that “gays can be fixed” (her words, not mine).
If you want your children to grow up in a little Christian bubble, send them to a Christian school so YOUR beliefs (keyword: YOUR) can be shoved down their throats until they graduate. A really great way to push your children out of your religion is to force them to believe in it.
It makes me very, very sad that people can’t just accept that love is different for EVERYONE.
Kadied – *I* don’t treat you any way. There are plenty of people in this world who will treat you respectfully and lovingly and with care – and still disagree with you.
All I can say is this: If you live this life and think that everyone who is kind to you agrees with you, then you are mistaken.
I love all people. I think that God loves every single person on this earth. I think I don’t agree with the choices some people make. I KNOW that God does not like many of the choices *I* make. I know I am far from perfect. That doesn’t mean I’m not deserving of kindness and respect. And that is how I view people who are gay. I may not agree with them but that doesn’t automatically label me as someone who would treat a person as a “disfigured, immoral monster”.
I am very sorry for your childhood. I’m sure you have suffered and that truly is unforgivable for any parent to treat a child that way. But I am not your parent. That’s not me doing that to you.
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HUH? GAYNESS IS NOT A CHOICE. Adultery is a choice. Bigotry is a choice. Religion is a choice. But GAYNESS IS NOT A CHOICE.
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The best thing to come from today is my new twitter friend, @kadield. I new there would be *some* good.
Gretchen, I respect your post & your honesty, and how well written this was. And even though I agree with the core of what you are saying {to do what we feel is best for our family} I have to ask you this:
Do you know what this teachers gay marriage is like? I know several gay couples {one of which is in my extended family} and every single one of these relationships are stronger than many heterosexual ones I know. They are firmly committed to one another, they share common beliefs, they support one another through the good & the bad, they enjoy one another, they pray together, they are hard-working individuals, etc. Aren’t these beliefs that you, as a Christian, want to instill in your children!?
This woman is living a similar life to you in so many ways and yet the only reason you “disapprove” of her lifestyle is because she has a wife, and not a husband. If you are going to be so honest, why not address WHY exactly you disapprove of this situation? Is it because it makes you uncomfortable? Is it because it makes you sad? Why? Because it’s different that your views doesn’t necessarily suffice when she is likely living her life–her values–in so many ways that are likely similar to your own.
Bottom line is, if you don’t want your kids exposed to something that torments you so much, don’t expose them.
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I understand. It would really upset me to find out that one of my children’s teacher was a conservative Christian.
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HOLLAHHHH!
Since I do not think I can contribute to this discussion in any constructive positive way without a complete vomitus of profanity, I will simply fist-pump my agreement with Marinka.
As a mother of a teen who has many gay friends (many of whom hang out at my home for campfires on Friday nights because their own parents to do not accept them), I will also admit to thinking the same thing Jennifer D did. In this day and age of teen suicides due to bullies, how is it a healthy discussion to promote intolerance of anyone by anyone?
See, I think in this day of teen suicides due to bullies, it’s *especially* important to have these conversations. It’s not only the gay kids who are bullied that are the concern– it’s the actual bullies we need to start with. And where can we start? Their parents. If a dialog like this can result in someone changing their views, or becoming more accepting and raising more accepting children, isn’t that a good thing? Or, maybe I’m too optimistic. That was my hope.
And, Marinka’s comment was perfection.
Jill, I respect that this was the motivation behind you running the post- opening dialog. I sincerely do hope that the the dialog can change opinions so that parents can become and teach their children to be accepting of EVERYONE.
I hear what you’re saying. Any teacher who promotes their personal beliefs and labels it as teaching is in the wrong.
And, for the record, Conservative Christianity was already outlawed in public school so Marinka, I don’t think you have anything to worry about.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
Actually Conservative Christianity wasn’t outlawed in public school. No one religion was picked on, it was all of them. Frankly I’d be happier if religion was removed completely from public schools.
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But there are plenty of teachers in public schools who are “openly Conservative Christians” and they might now and then say things in class like, “when I was at church the other night.”
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FYI all of my girls (teens and early 20′s) will be posting, fbing or tweeting about this – I won’t tell you their sexual orientations because it simply doesn’t matter but they ALL feel strongly regarding discrimination, bullying and hatred! I am hogging your comment section, sorry- I just keep going slack-jawed. I posted a link a few secs ago to spread the word and the reason but whatever your lifestyle, PLEASE support a stop to the bullying and hatred that was so bad it caused several young men to take their lives- again it is not about your beliefs it is about how WRONG it is to make others so miserable they see suicide as the only option. Wear purple on Oct 20th!
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I also wonder what the teen suicide statistics would be if these teens had personal relationships with a loving, compassionate, merciful Jesus.
Is she promoting intolerance, or a life lived basking in the light and warmth of God’s grace?
And for those of you who are bemoaning your experiences with organized religion, I am sincerely sorry that you’ve had those experiences. But Texan Mama never promoted organized religion or going to church three times a week learning to judge others.
The perils of organized religion are really a separate issue. Jesus did not come to earth to establish a religion. He came to establish a relationship.
Ya know, it is great that you think that he came and did these things. But there are hundreds of millions of well adjusted people who don’t believe in him and have no need.
It is a perilous path to go down, this suggestion of what would happen if these kids had “religion.”
But just for kicks let’s talk about people and religion. Some people need the comfort, structure and guidelines of religion to feel safe and secure. Others don’t require it.
A sense of belonging and unconditional love is great and it can be found in every religion and in many different groups. I’d be curious to know what the statistics are for suicide under those parameters instead of something so limiting.
“I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” Matthew 10:34 Let’s just get our facts straight here.
Had to laugh. Probably not the place but *shrug* in for a penny and all that. ALL 4 of my daughters have been held up as role models by their (different) teachers – told that the other students should be Good Christians like the girls are because they are polite, respectful, intelligent and stick up for the underdog – we go to public school- and NOT ONE OF THEM IS CHRISTIAN- one leans a bit that way, two are firmly opposed etc- and they did go to church in their earlier, formative years, but they were also exposed to other religions and told that they ALL have good in them – to learn the teachings, not the political bs- there is no right and wrong, just what is right for you, and as long as they tried to live up to the golden rule (treat others the way you would like to be treated) then it’s all good. This makes me so sad, I’ve been reading for over an hour now and my heart is breaking at the spreading of ignorance and hate. BTW the 20th is spirit day- please show your support by wearing purple! http://www.myloonyverse.com/2010/10/no-room-for-bullying-and-hatred-spirit.html
dddiva recently posted..Menu for week of 10-11
Brave Mommy not Scary Mommy today – good for you opening up a forum such as this no matter which side of the fence you sit on.
My husband is an atheist, my kids are very aware of this, I am definitely a believer … do I take my girls to church anywhere right now – No … and why? Because there is nary a one that doesn’t point a finger at someone. God didn’t say I love you and you and you, but you not so much’!
Yes, I can turn to the Bible and say things like ‘only God will judge, wait til judgement day, do not cast stones, do unto others, love one another …’ but religion aside, do we not teach our kids just to be kind and loving and the best that they can be, accepting of all others, no matter what?
My husband explained gay to my 12 yr old. He told her that there are couples that are boy and girl who love eachother and then there are couples that are boy and boy and girl and girl, and they can be couples and love eachother too. He said that he and I were fine with that, but that she would meet people throughout her life who would tell her that it was wrong, and that it was up to her to see how she felt. This was after we met a lovely male couple on our travels, one is a Science teacher and my 12 yr old delighted in his knowledge as we trampled thro the jungle in Panama. She really enjoyed their company, she saw their great love for eachother – and didnt’ bat an eyelid.
We homeschool our kids so that we can travel the world with them and expose them to all walks of life. I hope that they grow up to be accepting of people in all countries, all religions and all walks of life. But most of all I want them to treat others with kindness, tolerance and respect – then our job as parents will grade us an A!
This post is a little about controlling our kids (and us) btw …
http://bywordofmouthmusingsandmemoirs.blogspot.com/2010/10/banned-books-stock-up-on-your-library.html
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Thank you for being so honest and thoughtful with your post. I respect your right to your feelings even if they’re not the same as mine.
What fundamentally bothers me is the blanket characterization of your child’s teacher as being in contrast with your entire value system because she’s gay. I consider myself to be a liberal Christian, and at the core of my value system are concepts such as loving my neighbors and my enemies, helping out those less fortunate than me, etc. As a Christian, I would assume you harbor similar values though we may not entirely agree on our world views.
Even though you may have discomfort with the teacher’s homosexuality, is it possible she has other qualities that can make a good role model? Does she demonstrate and value hard work? Honesty? Compassion? I don’t know her. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn’t. But why does her entire existence have to begin and end with being gay?
There’s a lot of ugliness in the world, and it’s a tough line to tread to give your kids enough knowledge to take care of themselves, and shield them enough so they have a chance to safely grow and explore as kids. I know we’re all doing the best we can.
this was my point exactly in my comment – just because she is gay, Gretchen is taking her off the table as a role model–which is very sad & not “God-like” if you ask me.
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Okay, I feel like I’m repeating myself because I’m jumping around and replying to lots of comments…
It is possible to care about/like/respect someone who disagrees with you.
I am trying to surround my children with adults who support my parenting choices. I think we all want to do that. And I was hoping to explain that just because I don’t agree with the homosexual lifestyle, that doesn’t make me – or others like me – any more narrow minded than people who disagree with the conservative Christian lifestyle.
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Then why dont you send your kids to Christian School?
This is not an option for millions of people.
HAHA! Have you ever checked out how much Christian school costs in DFW? My husband is on staff at a church, so we could get a discount at the Christian school, but even THEN we couldn’t afford it. It’s SO expensive. Plus, I don’t know how Texan Mommy feels about this, but there is a huge stigma in DFW surrounding a large chunk of the religious schools, and for me, as a Christian parent, and as a grown up who attended Christian school my whole life… I’m almost willing to say that I’d rather have my kids in public! Yikes.
Julie recently posted..And the Winners Are
yep, i completely agree. if you do not want your child to be exposed to other “role models” and to act, think, and speak in your own belief system, then homeschooling is the better option. maybe lock up the children inside the house and be done with other exposures to undesirable models.
plus, even Jesus went out into the world to spread the good word. if gretchen wants her children to become true Christians, then at some point they have to go out into the world and evangelize. but i doubt if they can become successful as evangelists if their world view is very limited.
and please, Christianity is about love, brotherhood and compassion. where’s the compassion in such an upbringing. methinks, gretchen is taking her faith to a radical place =( and i am a christian, too, by the way.
Okay, well, so much for respectful discourse.
I purposely did not bring the Bible into this. Why are many commenters, yourself included, assuming that because I disagree with her that it’s impossible for me to show her love or compassion? My child has heard me be in support of her and her class, directly to her (while he was present) and also to him (about her) while in our home.
It is possible to support a teacher’s mission to teach without agreeing with their values. This is where my concern lies: I worry that her values will cross over into the teaching and the line will become so blurred that she won’t be able to differentiate the two.
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But the Bible is precisely at the heart of your worries. You worry that your children will be exposed to values other than those in Christian teaching. I think that if your children are taught the right Christian ways, they will come back into the path that have been set for them even when other people may try to lead them away. Or even when other people just present them with other belief systems. You will still be there to guide them, after all. I forgot the Bible verse on that one.
Sooner than later, our children will be exposed to other belief systems and it is important to tell them what we believe as parents, try to set them on the right path as Christians, and then let these values take root. Our children may stray from the paths we have set for them but if we have done our jobs as parents, they will realize their mistakes and come back into Jesus’ arms.
Webster:
2. ( values) a person’s principles or standards of behavior; one’s judgment of what is important in life
Is being homosexual a value?
Does your heterosexuality interfere with your work? Or raising your children for that matter? Does the line become blurred and you can’t tell the difference between your sex life and what you are teaching your kids? You know nothing about her values, nothing at all, other than that she is choosing not to hide who she is (notice I said who she is, not who she chose to be) in a closet. This completely flabbergasts me.
How would you feel if Christians were shunned? Would you pretend you didn’t believe just because it no longer fit in with mainstream thinking? Yeah, didn’t think so. But that’s what you are asking the teacher to do- hide who and what she is because you don’t approve.
Honestly I get your point to a degree and IF she was telling the kids about her lifestyle maybe I would agree to an extent, but she’s not doing that, you are just afraid that someday she might.
Do you worry that the values the heterosexual teachers will cross over into the teaching? I guarantee you not one of them is perfect, not a single one.
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Jill, I totally applaud you for posting this. I think as bloggers, it is important for us to remember that there are views outside of our own.
& to all those that are “ashamed” that Jill posted it – why? Because it is against what you feel & view? Isn’t that along the same lines as condemning the poster for sheltering her children against opposing views? Either way, it’s about silencing the other side.
& Gretchen, I commend your articulation & can respect your opinion & beliefs for what they are – YOUR opinion & YOUR beliefs.
As far as the actual subject at hand…eh. I wouldn’t be upset with my son’s teacher being gay UNLESS it became an issue in the classroom. But I feel that way about anything – religion, sexuality, etc in the classroom. Those are mine to teach in the home. & my church, if we choose to go. Let the teacher stick to math & a no-biting policy.
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Blair, you said exactly what I would’ve said, had I enough brain power this morning to write it. It always amazes me that some people cannot stand to READ or SEE an opinion that opposes their own.
And Jill…? Bravo for allowing the post. This great country was founded on freedoms.
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Thank you, guys.
Thank you. I appreciate it very very much.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
Yes, yes many of us are doing things differently. Role models and influences are not synonymous. What every belief system you subscribe to, I’d hope it started out with acceptance.
I am assuming Cierra thought Gretchen was a voice of reason because this is finally a post on this blog that isn’t just a bunch of whining and wah, wah, wah, poor me like most of Scary Mommy’s posts are and her guest writers.
I support and agree with Gretchen. Homosexuality is not supported by my religious beliefs; however, I DO NOT hate gay people. It seems like you can’t disagree with homosexuality these days without being called intolerant or worse. If one of my children has an openly gay teacher, I would share Gretchen’s point of view. If one of my children is gay, I will always love my child, no matter what, but I will let it be known to him or her that I do not agree with his or her lifestyle. Much like if one of my children wants to participate in polygamy-I would not support the lifestyle, but I will always love and support my child. You can support a child without supporting his or her actions. This will have to be one of those areas that my child and I will have to ‘agree to disagree on.’
I don’t understand how you can “disagree” with homosexuality. It’ like not “agreeing” with someone being black or white, female or male, tall or short, etc..
I think my biggest issue with this position is that you cannot equate a gay person to a role-model. That is very sad and narrow-minded, I’m afraid. I think pastors/priests that abuse young boys should not be role models, even though they claim to be “heterosexual” to their congregation. In my mind, a role-model is a person who has a positive impact on the development, well-being of my children. Whether they are gay or straight, male or female, black or white, etc., you get my drift.
I think your children are missing out. Period. This could be the most fantastic educator on the planet and if you can’t look past the fact that she is gay, you will never “see” that. Just because someone sits next to you in church or calls their significant other “husband” or “wife” does NOT make them a moral or decent person. I
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I never said she wasn’t a good teacher. She is. She’s intelligent and kind. But if she discusses her personal choices about her lifestyle and promotes it as teaching, I will be very upset. I think that type of discussion is best left for families to discuss.
Again, as I wrote above, this post is not about anything I’m going to DO, but rather just what I’m thinking. I am not going to remove my child from that class. He’s doing fine and he knows I support her teaching. I will support her as long as she remains professional. That goes for ANY teacher that my child has.
I think many people are missing my point: I feel that some choices that people make will cause me to view them as less-than-great role models for my children. Practicing homosexuality is just ONE of those choices. Doesn’t mean that the person is bad. Doesn’t mean the person is not credible. It just means, can’t I choose who I expose my children to? Isn’t that my right and responsibility as a parent?
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Wow, this whole discussion is awesome. However I do have a problem with the phrase “practicing homosexuality” , I didn’t realize it took practice to be one? I don’t “practice heterosexuality” I just am..as those who are Gay just are..no practice needed! Jill..commend you for letting this discussion happen and Texan Mama glad you felt comfortable enough to open this can of worms. People are People and shoud be taken as they are , for the Good, Bad and Indifferent because thats what makes the world go ’round..at least thats what I feel.
Texan Mama people are missing the point because they get tunnel vision and focus only on the fact that you don’t agree with a homosexual lifestyle, when that wasn’t the point of your post (IMO). If you had said “well my kid’s teacher is a member of the Westboro church, but she’s a good teacher and kind, I just worry because HER PERSONAL BELIEFS may/have come up in class…” I think people would be singing a different tune. I agree with you personal choices/non-choices/beliefs/sexual preferences/lifestyle choices/ etc need to be kept out of the classroom.
Bravo Tanya :)
Sorry Texan Mama, but what on earth makes you think she will discuss ‘her personal choices about her lifestyle and promotes it as teaching’??
As far as I can see, so far all you have referred to is the possibility that she might refer to her partner or use a female pronoun.
You talk of this woman as a good teacher – you have not yet in your comments given any indication as to WHY you think this woman will start talking about her personal choices, despite being asked repeatedly. Has she done it? Has she given you reason to fear she will? Why would she any more than a hetrosexual teacher?
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This post just left me feeling sad that this woman is so scared of the world, she feels she needs to cling to the familiar. If you believe God created man like you do, then why wouldn’t you want to revel in the world’s diversity?
Oh my gosh, she never said she was scared of the world, nor is she clinging to the familiar. She is standing firm in her beliefs and in her faith.
Couldn’t agree with you more Hazel :)
Please people … don’t make all of us homeschooling parents sound narrowminded conservative crazies, we are liberal, we are open, our friends are diverse … and we pulled our kids from a private so called Christian education, because it was sort of not so Christian (and vindicated my atheist husband with his ‘thats why they threw the Christians to the lions remarks’)
but wanted to share quickly … my 12 yr old was just reading over my shoulder and here are her comments …
Did the teacher tell everyone she was gay (no, I think maybe it was gossiped around)
Is she teaching anything about being gay? (it doesn’t sound like it)
Is she a good teacher? (sounds like she is, no complaints there)
Maybe they should be happy she is a good teacher and cares about her students, my last Science teacher at school had a man husband and it didn’t make her a better person!
out of the mouths of babes …
http://bywordofmouthmusingsandmemoirs.blogspot.com/2010/10/banned-books-stock-up-on-your-library.html
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Here’s the problem with this whole post…homosexuality is not a morality issue. A person’s sexual orientation is not a choice, it is not a lifestyle. It wasn’t that long ago that people in this country were saying the same things as Gretchen is saying about blacks. White people didn’t want to use the same facilities, go to the same schools, or God forbid be friends with black people. In my mind, it is the same thing. If Gretchen substituted black for lesbian, people would think she was horrible. I agree she articulates her viewpoint very well, but at the very core, the fact that she doesn’t want her child exposed to homosexuality, is disrespectful and breeds intolerance and hate. I hate to think what Gretchen would say to her children if one of them comes to her and says they are gay. I too have values and morals and beliefs that I want to instill in my children and that is my right, as it is Gretchen’s, but I think she totally misses the mark on the issue of homosexuality. It shouldn’t be an issue at all, it’s just a fact of life. How about teaching our children that it’s just another way to be, just as people come in all different colors?
That’s just it.
Millions of people believe that it is a morality issue, that it is a choice, that it is not a fact of life. Comparing this issue with that of race is apples and oranges. It is not the same thing.
She is not breeding hate. Teaching her children that homosexuality is a sin is not the same thing as telling her children to hate gay people. Not even close.
Millions of people used to believe that the world was flat.
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Thank you Jack, you got my point exactly, Hazel did not. Millions of people do believe it is an issue of morality and that’s the problem. Gay men who pretend to be straight and then have random anonymous partners on the down low putting their wives at risk is a morality issue, young gay men joining the priesthood because they are ashamed of their sexual orientation who then later in life abuse young boys is a morality issue, bigotry is a morality issue. Homosexuality is not an issue of morality. Race and sexual orientation are not apples and oranges, one is as much a part of who you are as the other. Like I said, it wasn’t that long ago that white people didn’t mix with blacks and now my children have no reason to believe that the color of someone’s skin means anything at all about the kind of person they are. I hope the same can be said for this issue in my lifetime.
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SEX that’s what this is about!
It has nothing what-so-ever to do with colour/religion or race, but everything to do with sexual perversity!
You say ‘homosexuality is not an issue of morality’ but make a sweeping statement ‘ young gay men joining the priesthood because they are ashamed of their sexual orientation who then later in life abuse young boys is a morality issue. Sooo being ‘gay’ is fine, but if there is not a sexual outlet, gays will go on to be paedophiles……..is that what you are saying??? Because surely if this is the case we should be VERY worried about all gays, involved not just inside the church but in life too, this is a perverse and moral issue!!!
Sandra, I must have been mistaken, I thought this was a civilized debate. I hope you got some sleep and had some time to calm down and be reasonable. I absolutely did not say that all gay men who don’t have a sexual outlet will become pedophiles, I was making a statement that some gay people will do immoral things, like the examples I gave above, just as heterosexuals also do plenty of immoral things. I was trying to get the focus off of sexual orientation alone as a morality issue. It’s not!! People are born that way, and I think you will find that most will tell you they never would have chosen it for themselves. Get a grip dear, read it again. Homosexuality is not perverse, and that statement alone is hateful and intolerant. I stand by my statement that sexual orientation is as much a part of who a person is, as is race.
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Sandra won’t ever get it, Jenny. She’s a lost cause.
I want my children to be surrounded by all kinds of different people with all kinds of different points of view and beliefs. I will teach them what I believe and what others belief and then they can make the decision what to believe in.
Jill~ Thank you for posting this and Gretchen~ Thank you for writing this. I have really enjoyed, most, of all the comments and thoughts. It was very interesting and a great discussion.
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I think the post was well written and the author respectful in expressing her views.
She’s allowed to believe what she believes and teach it to her children. As long as she’s also teaching tolerance and acceptance, that’s good parenting.
She’s allowed to be concerned about how the lifestyle of someone her child spends a considerable amount of time with will impact her son and his education. She also clearly states that she knows it’s her choice to send her child to that school.
I disagree with her beliefs, but I’m so encouraged by the way she expressed herself in this post. Not all christian conservatives are screaming harpies and unreasonably blind bullies.
I think it’s great that you posted it, Jill. I know you wouldn’t have done so if it had been disrespectful in any way.
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Thank you Mae. It’s nice to know that some people see we aren’t all bible-beating crazies.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
I haven’t read all the comments yet. So I apologize if I am repetitive. First of all, you are very brave for this post. A lot of people agree with you but a lot do not.
I do not. Gay is okay with me because I believe people are born gay and it was already decided for them genetically. That being said, descrimintating against someone because of sexual orientation is in my opinion just wrong. Just like descriminating against someone for their skin color or handicap.
My daughter’s best and most popular teacher (by parents and students and won Teacher of the year in our state twice) is an openly gay man. He is awesome with the kids. He specializes in kids that have ADD/ADHD and somehow he is able to turn it around. Kids thrive in his class. Does being gay have anything to do with that? Of course not. He is just amazing at his job.
We are not conservative people. We have faith but are not religious. To us, a relationship with God is personal. But we are strict with our children. Our 17 yo daughter does not have the freedom that many of her friends do.
What would you do if one of your kids was gay? You cannot pray or force gay away. I shudder to think about some of the stories of kids that were so afraid to “come out” to their families, they took extreme measures. Knowing that they would never be accepted and loved.
really. I respect your right to your opinion and your right to raise your children your way. But please be careful that the kids are not getting the wrong message that your way is the only right way. Kids can be so literal and that is where some ideas expressed the wrong way present themselves while the kids are away. if that makes any sense.
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My parents sheltered my brother and I from allot when we were kids. They were strict, but fair, and wanted us to have a great support system consisting of the people they felt were up to that challenge. If you knew us from when we were kids, you would be shocked at how each of us turned out. I stayed within those boundaries set by my parents, and my husband and I are raising our kids the same way… my brother on the other hand, went completely polar opposite and has been completely out of control since adolescents and doesn’t seem to be concerned how this affects his 2 kids, their future, or his for that matter. (I should point out he doesn’t have custody of them, and is currently in another drug/alcohol rehab)
Although I have many lesbian and gay friends, I know I wouldnt be ok if their lifestyle was a discussion in school. Its my job as a parent to discuss these things with my kids – when I feel they are ready- and its simply because im their parent and thats my job. There are too many kids that have become desensitized too early on many subjects, and its my job to make sure discussions and exposures are age appropriate for my kids.
I do not agree with your opinion, but I too respect it and I think it is brave of Scary Mommy to host this.
But your childeren will be confronted by opinions other then yours and will have to make their own choice at some point (yes, I know it is a pain in the ahem, but that is life). The only way they will not be confronted by someone elses lifestyle or opinion is when you lock them up in cave. But since you seem like a very nice person I don’t think you will do that.
Oh and I am with you on no cell phones before 16.
Gay is ok with me, but I COMPLETELY understand what you are feeling. It’s hard to put our children out there and help them understand the world. There are people at my daughter’s school who I don’t feel are quite what I’d expect for her adult role models. It’s out of my control; it will ALWAYS be that way. Even if I chose to send her to a parochial or religious school things wouldn’t be exactly right. When I was in high school I remember the drama surrounding a teacher who was getting a divorce. I didn’t understand at the time why it was such a big deal, but now as an adult I realize some people were upset to be paying tuition and have something they felt was morally wrong happening in front of their children.
I guess the only thing I can do is instill in my daughter my feelings and beliefs and set the expectations for her. I have to show her how to know what is right and what is wrong, and how we are going to treat and respond to people and situations that don’t line up with our beliefs. Like I said, gay is ok with me, but there are other things that are so not ok with me and it’s up to me to help her learn those things and be strong enough in herself and her beliefs that even in the face of all the crazy that is in the world to keep believing in what is right.
I am also going to do everything I can to teach her tolerance for those who have different beliefs, because for me treating someone less than nice because they are not who I want to be is just wrong.
Gretchen, your post was very well written, But I guess for me, I’m left a little confused on your fear.
The lesbian in my life was not a teacher, but my Aunt- who was/is like a second mother to me. She helped my mother when she was a single mom, we all lived together for most of my life growing up. She is caring, nurturing and though sometimes a bit of a pita (pain in the a–)…. An amazing woman whom I credit greatly for who I am today as a wife and mother of 2.
Thought I cant recall a specific conversation about it, I grew up knowing she was a lesbian…. Which to me, was like noting that she had blonde hair. I had many friends who would visit and it was a non issue to them as well.
I too grew up christian… Went to catholic school, my aunt did as well… Infact she is both my and my sons godmother. She was that good I had to pass her on to my son :-)
I guess what I’m saying in all of my rambling is this- did it affect my values? Or the values of my childhood friends? Absolutely. But was it de-valuing? Absolutely not. If anything it helped make us well rounded in our views. Knowing her “humanized” being gay. Your sons teacher will do the same. Being able to respect and accept gay people is value that is extremely important. One that would make me proud as a mother.
The teacher is a professional. I doubt she will have a lengthly discussion with the class n her sexuality- just as a straight teacher wouldnt. If she mentions her wife?…just think-
There is a lot more out there today to worry about our kids being exposed to than a teacher being a lesbian…. Like Miley Cyrus for instance. ;)
I think exposing children to other lifestyles are important. It teaches
Not only do I strongly disagree with you, but I find this topic to be very offensive in the wake of several suicides in the last week from students who were bullied about their sexual orientation. I also find it hypocritical for you to suggest that the teacher keep their personal life private (read: please stay in the closet for the sake of my children) while writing a post that demonizes it.
You’re asking others if being gay is OK – are you seeking validation or approval for your own beliefs? To me, that’s like asking if being Black or Latino is OK or if being too tall is OK. Being gay is clearly not OK with you and that is a message you’re handing down to your children. When you model to your children through your actions and words that someone who is different from you and your family is NOT OK, you’re teaching them to be judgmental, that people who are different are not as valuable, that they are to be feared and loathed, and that they are less of a person than you. That’s definitely not OK.
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I had doubts about the timing of this as well, but as I said above, I think we– as parents– need to have these conversations and try to figure out how to raise children who don’t hate. We’ll never all agree, but maybe someone reading these comments will have their eyes opened to a different way of thinking. Or, not. But it was worth a shot.
And, being tall *is* wrong. It makes me feel short.
HA! Well, as a tall person, I’m guilty as charged! :)
While I was initially disappointed about the timing of this post, I do appreciate how it has opened up dialogue on this very important issue. I give you a lot of credit for highlighting this topic, Jill, and I do hope that more minds and hearts are opened because of it.
-Aimee
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Part of my point of this was to explain my thoughts about my personal fears of exposing children who make choices that contradict my own.
Actually, I never asked if being gay was OK. I let Jill pick the title and, in my opinion, it was a fine title. Because I was hoping that my post was more than just the title.
So, I just have to ask, of whom are you hoping this post will open minds, Aimee? Only people who think like I do, so they will agree with your point of view? Because I do believe I was very respectful in my post. I never said the teacher was a bad teacher. I said that I would prefer her beliefs were in line with mine. I also said that I know that I can’t make that choice.
I didn’t want to take this post in a bunch of different directions, like my specific beliefs or why I believe the way I do, because I think that would pull away from the message. And that message was intended to be:
We are all parents trying to give our children the best start in life by giving them role models who mirror our own value system. Clearly, I would not mirror YOUR value system, so would you want your child with ME as an educator? I’m guessing no. That’s my point. I think my values are right and I know other people don’t agree, but that doesn’t make me wrong or a hater or narrow minded. It just means that I have an opinion.
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You ask – “so, I just have to ask, of whom are you hoping this post will open minds, Aimee?”
Gretchen, if any good comes out of a post like this, I would hope that all people who are intolerant of others based on sexual orientation would reconsider their position. Do I hope more people accept and respect those in the LBGT community? Yes, I do! I believe this to be not only a civil rights and constitutional issue, but an ethical issue as well. As children and young adults are being bullied to death because of intolerance, fear, and hate, this is the time for everyone who opposes gays and gay rights to find compassion and tolerance.
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*rubbing eyes* Is it just my computer screen or is there a comment posted by the one & only “I Will Never Read Your Blog Again” Madge?!
LOL, right? She makes me laugh.
everybody seems to be replying to your post in the form of an opinion… their own opinion I might add. the great thing about modern technology & being able to hear from anybody & everybody…
after I read your blog & almost all of the replies, (some I just skimmed) I noticed that nobody actually posted any “advice” to perhaps help you…
it’s nice that you don’t judge her for her orientation, she most likely didn’t choose to be gay! focus on her educational talents. what does she offer that can help your children? if you start there & get other parents that maybe concerned as you are, about the focus being taken away from the education of your children, to do the same. be proactive rather than reactive in keeping everybody’s energy focused to your kids education.
while I may disagree with your views in cable tv, religion, and gay people… I do agree with your belief that we should be able to live our lives and raise our families around our own beliefs & values. that being said… even though another family might be different, you may find 1 or 2 qualities that align with yours and that may help you or teach you something.
good luck with your situation… I hope it works out for all parties involved.
-p
Thanks Pete.
She is a good teacher and I have told my son as much. I have decided not to bring it up with my child unless he has a question or mentions that it has come up in class. That was what I was saying (although I think some may have missed it) that she hasn’t brought her gay lifestyle into the class as of yet. Maybe she never will, which would be good. I think it would cause her heartache as much as it would for me. And I really hope that some people reading this post may be able to see how it’s possible for a person to disagree with someone’s choices, but still care for, respect, and love that person.
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Thank you for sharing. You were very sincere and respectful in your post. As a conservative Christian myself, let me offer this observation. The world expects us to apologize for our beliefs dare we ever share them or let them outside the ‘faith is a private matter’ construct. It’s getting very tedious. Do liberals apologize for their judgements and name calling? I think not. In this day and age, it is not ok to have an opinion that differs from what our culture deems to be mainstream – which is a moving target these days. I didn’t think your discourse was judgemental at all. Christ said love the sinner hate the sin. My brother is a homosexual. I love him dearly. Do I not let my children be around their uncle? Absolutely not. We love him – and when the subject comes up about his partner, we explain as best we can how God made everyone different. With different gifts and different challenges. But we are all God’s children. Thanks again.
I disagree that the world expects you to apologize for your beliefs. I think in the US Christianity is not only accepted, but applauded. I can only speak as one individual liberal here but I don’t want to to apologize for your beliefs but I also don’t want to hear about them. Much as you probably don’t want to hear about my liberal views, a gay man’s first date with another gay man, or Ramadan prayers of a Muslim. Yes, religion *should* be private. It certainly should not be thrust at others as aggressively as some people do it. Just as sexual advances of any type should not be thrust at others. Just as political arguments should not be thrust at others.
And that goes triple in classrooms. Teachers should teach the subject matter at hand. Very simple.
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I don’t really know what to say.
My dad came out in 1991 when I was 15 and crushed my world. Everything I thought I knew was turned upside down. I’ve posted a lot lately, so check out my blog if you want to tell me how you don’t want your kids around me or him.
People are people.
We are all the same, no matter what. Deep down inside, we all have hearts. Hearts were meant to LOVE & EMBRACE all kinds of people. Gay or straight, black or white, Jew or Christian.
You may think you don’t know someone who is gay, but I assure you everyone does.
I’m tired of categories, of labels, of criticism and hiding.
A lesbian teacher isn’t going to screw up your kids anymore than some straight teacher. There will always be kids asking questions. My twin daughters (who are almost 5) have NEVER thought (yet) to ask about my dad and his partner. They’re just Pop Pop and Na Na to them. They just have nicknames like their other grandparents. Yesterday, one of my daughters declared that she wants to marry her favorite babysitter (who is a female). I laughed and thought it was very sweet.
We have neighbors next door whose 4 year old son loves to dress up in princess garb. He loves having his nails painted. To each his own, I say. Who are we to try and steer our kids one way or the other and not expose them to all kinds of differences? They will grow to be narrowminded and misinformed if they are only surrounded by your hand-picked selections. Let them decide for themselves. Let them choose their own friends. Let the teachers teach. Step out of yourself and do consider that you could have friends who are married—and one could be gay and hiding it. He/she could have kids. He/she could be so terrified of being discovered…..is that any way to live?? WE HAVE DONE THIS. WE have made other people ashamed of who they are.
SHAME ON US.
erin @ the mother load
@erinlynn76
Erin Margolin recently posted..Gay By Proxy
Well, Erin, for not knowing what to say you sure said a mouthful! LOL (That was a joke not snark so don’t take it hatefully.)
I just have one thought: these are my beliefs. I consider it my privilege to raise my kids with my belief system. So, no, I don’t want my kids looking to people who practice homosexuality (or living with another person out of wedlock, even heterosexuals, or polygamists) as models of how they should live their lives.
And, I understand that they will grow up and make their own choices, and I can’t stop that. I was kinda trying to share my point of view that I’m a mom who’s concerned about her kids and I don’t know what the future holds or how I’ll handle it and I’m scared about that. I do teach my kids to love other people and treat everyone equally. It would just be SO NICE if some of the commenters here could practice that “LOVE EVERYONE EQUALLY NO MATTER WHAT THEIR OPINIONS” thing on me. Because, ya know, I don’t share your opinion but does that mean that I dont’ get to be loved equally?
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
I believe that religion and sexuality are two seperate issues here. The two reside so closely to each other that people sometimes forget or don’t realize that sexuality has nothing to do with your religion and religion the same to sexuality. Sure they visit each other quite often, but they are merely neighboors.
Sexuality is an instinct. In fact it is an animal instinct. Just as with all animals, our essential goal in life is to survive. To continue the existance of our species. However, even in the animal world homosexuality isn’t uncommon. So how is it that just one species of the millions on earth has decided, against nature, that it is so wrong?
No matter if we are speaking of religion or sexuality I have the same attack plan. I will arm my child with all information available. When the time is right for her I will give her all the knowledge from all view points that I possibly can. I will educate her myself and with the help of the people I have surrounded myself with. They come from all walks of life and each of them will be able to give her a different perspective on the many issues she may struggle with. I hope that she will take that information and develop an opinion on her own and be proud of it.
Most of all though, I hope she learns that when it comes to love there is no black and white. It isn’t even grayscale, it’s every color ever known. It can be anything you want it to be and I hope she never settles for less, even if it means she is bringing home girlfriends instead of boyfriends.
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This makes my heart hurt.
Truly.
I’m in tears.
Maria recently posted..Twelve
I may face a lot of fire for this, and I hope I don’t, but I am throwing myself out here in way I rarely ever do.
I am a lesbian.
I am also (when it boils down to it) a Conservative Christian. If I could, I would join the Catholic Church, as their core beliefs best fit mine. But, that’s quite obvious why I can’t.
We have four children. Who we are raising in a somewhat similar manner to you, as you described in your post. (Except we have satellite TV. Though we do heavily monitor what is being watched, and for how long. It is not on for long lengths of time, and at best, it is on for 2 hours a week. Waste of money maybe, but we have it because I love movies as much as I love books, and it is really one of the cheapest ways to watch them.)
My oldest didn’t get her first cell phone until she was 16.
The younger three have a cell phone that they share. They are under 16 but we made this decision after our youngest left our community center without telling anyone and went to a friends house. We didn’t know where she was, and it was a 2 hour long ordeal. For us, it was necessary.
We make our decisions based on our faith, love of God, and NOT because of our sexuality.
For the past year and a half, we have said “my spouse” for the most part. To people we are familiar and comfortable with, we say wife (just because I’m airing this out there, it is WEIRD even for us. In my state same-sex marriage is legal now. Though that is a conversation for another day. For the first 10 years we were together, we said partner. It was clear enough.Though honestly, most of the time people just assume I mean husband.
I sit on the other side of the fence as you, in some regards. But I’m wanting to give you some perspective that I hope will perhaps quell some concerns you have, which I think are legitimate, because they are issues I face on a daily basis. Though no one has ever actually outright asked or addressed them, you come to sense when someone has them.
Your sons’ teacher will likely never discuss her life choices in the classroom. If it comes up, she will probably very quickly change the subject, and make sure that it does not come up again. My youngest is in 4th grade, and it is just not something that 4th graders need to have a conversation about.
We are, in general very private people. We want to be left alone, we don’t want to talk about our personal lives, we just want to go about them as the rest of the world does. Sure, we may want to talk in lunch rooms about a trip we took, with adults. Not with children though. But even though, so many of us have been shunned, snubbed, ridiculed, or talked/whispered about behind our backs, that even that is asking too much. But then, perhaps my own experiences have just burned me so much that I am more private than most.
The only part of your post that truly upset was this: “I would prefer my son’s teacher be someone who shared my belief system.” While I -understand- it. I also just want to say. I am a Christian. Just because I love someone who is the same gender as me, does not mean I am a Christ Lover as well. I follow Christ just as you do. I have complete faith in Him. I live my life based on what He taught us. I raise my family on the values and morals taught in the Bible. Loving who I do, does not mean I can not be a Christian, or not have a belief system. It does not mean I am not Christian. You can be a Christian, and be Gay. You do not know her belief system. Don’t judge her faith, or beliefs, simply because of who she loves, and remember- who did Jesus love?
EVERYONE.
Love this.
Maria recently posted..Twelve
ditto
This, right here, is exactly why I (as a liberal Christian) believe that gay is ok.
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Thank you for being so eloquent.
THANK YOU for standing up. You hit the nail right on the head–a gay person can have Christian values, the same as a heterosexual person can spend weekends worshiping the Devil if they want. A person’s sexuality has no bearing on their morals/effectiveness as a role model. The day that society stops pigeonholing people is the day we can all truly be equal.
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thank you
#GayIsOK
Angie [A Whole Lot of Nothing] recently posted..Religion and Hypocrisy In other words- I may be mis-read
Yes. Thank you for this comment.
I’ve been reading through this post& the replies with tears running down my face.
Thank You for saying everything I couldn’t.
Thank you Crystal, thank you SO MUCH! From me to you, as a Catholic who struggles in her faith with some of the Church’s teaching, but most especially on this issue, thank you for being brave and strong. I love my Chruch, I won’t leave it for another…they ALL have problems. But you can be damn sure that the Church and its leaders are on top of my prayer list. I pray for tolerance, love, and truth. I even ask God that if I am wrong in praying for these things for the Church, that he show me the way. So far, I haven’t gotten anything but a thumbs up from Him, so I continue to pray for my Church and its followers.
Wow, I just went all Christian-y which is rare for this liberal momma…but that’s just me. I am who I am. I was born this way.
Well said. Thank you.
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Thank you for standing up and telling your story! It is beautiful and you sound like a beautiful person…pink, purple, blue or green…gay or stright!! Love to you!!
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I think it’s important to remember that while you may disagree with Gretchen’s views – as I do, vehemently -, she posted in a very respectful and well thought out manner and I think it’s unfair to attack her in comments just because her ideas conflict with your own. She didn’t attack anyone and I think she deserves the same courtesy.
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Which is the only reason why I felt comfortable posting this in the first place. She absolutely deserves respect for having the balls to write this and stand behind it.
*nod* And to clarify, I didn’t mean “you” as in YOU, I meant “you” as in anyone who happens to be jumping all over her shit in the comments.
Mommy Boots recently posted..Send Out the Search Party
After reading the post, I was – quite honestly – outraged at the views of the poster. However, in these types of situations, I often think taking a step back to think about what angered me is the best approach. So, after thinking about it, here are my thoughts. I believe – without reservation – that Gretchen has the choice to raise her family in whatever way she chooses and instill whatever beliefs are key to her “core.” And although she states that she is open to other people’s choices, just not for her family, I don’t feel that she really believes that.
As someone who is completely a polar opposite of many of my parents’ beliefs, I admire that they instilled in me the ability to have those different beliefs. I was raised in a Christian household which included church on Sundays, Sunday school, church choir, Bible camp, community service and all the traditional elements of living in a church-based, Christian small town (population 1500 spread out over 30 miles). And I believed in that life through college and living in NYC. And then my grandmother died. And I didn’t believe that there was a G-d who would take this caretaker and wonderful person from me. And then eventually I got over that. And then I met a man that I feel in love with – a Jewish man. And although he never asked me to convert and did not care if I did, I made the CHOICE to do so. For uniformity and for my children to have a basis of religion. When I told my parents, I was in fear of what would be lectured to me. And after I laid out my reasons for converting, I took a deep breath and waited for my dad’s tyrade to begin. And here it was – “I raised you to be a good person. I know you will always do what is right and best for you and others. And if you do those things, your “named” religion doesn’t matter. And we love you for that.” And that was the end of that. My children know that one set of grandparents are Jewish and the other are Christian. We explain that we will be celebrating Christmas with my parents, but that our religious beliefs don’t support it because we celebrate other holidays. My parents come to dinners and celebrate the Jewish holidays and my in-laws go to Christmas and Easter dinners. We have all learned to accept each other and live in harmony. And that is what I wish for my children.
My parents are conservative, right-wing Republicans through and through. And somehow, they raised a daughter that is liberal, left-wing Democrat. My dad is homo-phobic, but he won’t admit it and he would never shun another person – it just makes him uncomfortable. I have a lot of gay and lesbian friends and they love my parents. I grew up on a small farm in the middle of nowhere. And then I moved to NYC and lived all over the world and would NEVER go back to small-town life.
I cannot begin to even put into words how much I appreciate the fact that my parents, with all their Conservative (albeit, IMO, crazy) views were able to raise me to be my own person and to love everyone, no matter what. But they did this by simply letting go. They taught me right from wrong, but they made sure I made mistakes and learned from them. I only hope that I am being as lenient, yet guiding, to my own children.
For me, diversity is a beautiful thing. And if we did less sheltering and more exposing, the world just might be a more peaceful and harmonious place to live.
This quote:
“And if we did less sheltering and more exposing, the world just might be a more peaceful and harmonious place to live.”
Genius. Words to live by.
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love your post!
You had me up until you wrote this:
I feel that it’s reasonable to expect my child’s teacher to keep her personal life and professional life separate. The situation just gets a little sticky when Mrs. Jones, the history teacher, can say that she went to the museum of natural history with her husband, but Ms. Taylor has to use the term “friend” instead of referring to her partner as “wife” or “partner”. Is this fair? Maybe not. And I’m not a legal expert so I can’t say where the line is, where a teacher’s personal rights supercede the appropriateness of classroom verbiage.
You ask, “Is this fair?” and respond with, “Maybe Not.” You may not be a legal expert, but you are seem like an intelligent woman. So how can you come to the conclusion that it may not be fair. What it is, is hypocritical and downright wrong. If Mrs. Jones can refer to her husband, why would it be any different for Ms. Taylor to refer her significant other as Mrs. if she so chooses? You cannot have a double standard.
At this point it went from you shielding your children, to how you feel about Ms. Taylor’s choices.
I believe that everyone has the right to believe what they believe. And to raise their children accordingly. I was raised in a Christian household. My step father is a pastor and he and my mother have a church. My grandparents were strict Southern Baptist. I grew up experiencing many denominations and seeing the root of most religion and the differences as well. I am thankful that I had a strong Christian upbringing because it gave me a spiritual foundation and faith. As a younger child I went to Christian private schools. In the 4th grade I began public school. I was not shielded from the world. My parents and grandparents laid the foundation and then allowed me contact with things outside of that foundation. I was allowed to question things, and I was given answers to my questions. That is how people grow and become well rounded, rather than narrow minded and closed off.
In my twenties, I worked two jobs and was for the most part responsible. I fell in love and ended up pregnant. It was not my parent’s goal for me to be pregnant outside of wedlock. I struggled. I tried living with my boyfriend’s family and was not treated well. The stress was making me sick. I called my mother to ask if I could stay with them. She said she would get back to me…when she called me back, she had the number to a Christian maternity home. My step father had given it to her. In the end, the Christian tolerance and forgiveness I had been taught my whole life was thrown in my face. I stayed at the Christian maternity home and it was a wonderful experience.
I married my then boyfriend because my strong core made me feel guilty for having a baby out of wedlock. I’m now divorced with two children who need counseling because he is so damaging.
My point is, you can shelter them all you want. You can expose them to everything. In the end, what really matters is how you deal with their problems as they stumble through life and come to you for guidance. But expecting Ms. Taylor to call her wife her “friend” is not going to matter one iota in the scheme of things. It just teaches your kids that tolerance doesn’t apply to every situation…and that isn’t sheltering, it’s hypocritical.
You absolutely do get to choose if you want your child to be surrounded by people who share your belief system.
You can choose to send them to private school or home-school them.
State funded schools? Nope.
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You have every reason to fear that a teacher’s belief system will affect your child. You have every reason to believe that your child will come home with an expanded world view. That’s true whether a teacher is gay, straight, liberal, conservative or any shade on the spectrum in between. That is life, I think without it I would have died intellectually a long time ago. And I really feel more for you because if you live in fear (and that’s what I’m reading here. Fear. Pure and simple.) of the day when your children are swayed and reject what you’ve taught them, then I, in turn fear for your peace of mind, honestly. And I have a lot of compassion for this because I can read here also how much you care about them and in no way do I think you are intentionally damaging them. Quite the opposite, although I agree not at all with you philosophically speaking.
I’m a teacher — not of little kids, but of college students. It disturbs me to see the value of this educator discussed solely though the lens of her sexuality. Even well-intentioned validation — hey, she’s probably smart and knows science and cares about kids and is an excellent dancer — is minimizing, because wasn’t she considered competent enough to be hired in this district? Is she doing her job? Great. This is particularly true if the opposite assumption is that a heterosexual teacher is all of those things plus would not impose their sexual whatevers onto children like this scary lesbian. Were that the case there would be no creepy straight teachers of either gender, which is just not so, unfortunately.
Also? That teacher does NOT have to say “friend” instead of “wife” or “partner,” legally or otherwise. Will she? Maybe. And you know, maybe she’s single. Some people don’t define their activities in light of who they do them with, whether it’s going to a museum or going to bed.
My first impulse, although the education of your children is zero my business, is to suggest a religious school (where I went, actually, but it was Catholic and everyone knows we aren’t really taught the Bible. ;)) If your moral code is that important to you, it seems like the natural place, that or home. But it’s too hard, just too hard, for most kids raised with that kind of rigidity and sameness to face the world at 18 or 21 where all bets are off. That is why most people I know who were raised in strict religious households who leave or choose different paths still deal with the fallout to some degree for the rest of their lives. And I’m psyched for your kids that they’re in an environment where their very human inclination to question and think critically will (hopefully) be given a chance to thrive, no matter how nervous you are about them being exposed to people who are different. And really? That is everyone.
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I have to add:
My son IS taught by highly conservative Christians. They teach him love. We don’t share religious values but we share the belief that everyone is loved.
You say that you don’t hate gay people, but by judging this woman’s ability to teach and excel at her profession based on who she chooses to love? That is hateful. It is. It just is.
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Personally, I think it’s a *good* thing for my child to be exposed to people with different backgrounds and belief systems. The world is a diverse place, and I see nothing wrong with her knowing from an early age that everybody is different and that there’s nothing wrong with that. I think it encourages critical thinking.
I went to a very conservative Christian private school, and my parents tend to be more on the liberal side (and while I was raised Christian, we didn’t attend this particular denomination’s church). I would hear things at school about politics or religion, then come home and ask my mom about it. My mom would say, “Well, some people believe that. But your dad & I believe X.” She never told me how to feel about an issue, she let me figure it out for myself. I appreciate that more than anything. I think it taught me to think independently, and I don’t think that’s ever a bad thing.
I have read all the comments and I think it’s good that you posted this but I was on the fence for awhile given the current bullying issue. I think that open dialogue is good but at some point that “open dialogue” can still be incredibly hurtful for the one being talked about. And if a person isn’t very secure in his or herself, the results can be devastating.
I think Gretchen wrote very well about what she believes, but I believe that if her son’s teacher read this it would bring tears to her eyes. Not a role model? Should totally hide her life? If it were me I would feel like I was disprespected in a “respectful” tone. If it were me I would feel put down and confused why people could not see me through my sexuality. I would not want to cause anyone that kind of pain.
It’s not me and I am sitting here in tears. So I’ll wrap it up.
So, in answer to the question Is Gay Okay? Yes!
And if she is such a great science teacher in a public school I am more than happy to have her here. Good teachers are hard to find!
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Brittany, unfortunately, people DON’T see past your sexuality if you are not heterosexual. Once they find out you are “gay” (sorry but I just detest that term), you are looked at in a whole different light. It’s sad, but true. And you can’t fathom the deep levels of pain it causes.
You could not believe the number of times I have wanted to walk up to someone and say “Hey? It’s not CONTAGIOUS!”
As the originator of the “Gay is OK” movement that has started in the last few weeks (I realize I’m not the originator of my message, but the “Gay is OK” moniker started with me), I’m thinking you titled this the way you did to get attention from people like me.
To be completely honest, I don’t get the point of the post. Is it to point out that you don’t agree with someone who happens to be gay teaching your child? Or is it to apologize for your beliefs and to seek out like-minded parents whose religious beliefs stand in the way of your children’s schooling?
I feel like I’m coming across a bit angry and verbose here, but I just yesterday posted about how religion has no reason for being in the way of people’s love for one another, so I’m a little raw on the subject.
I’m also not here to convince you that your child’s teacher’s love life has absolutely nothing to do with what your child will learn. As a former teacher (I taught 5th grade for 4 years), I can with 100% certainty tell you that your child will not be “exposed” to the teacher’s sex life. To even suggest that exposure to a teacher’s sex life by a teacher in a public elementary school, is ludicrous.
Yes, you got my attention, and it incenses and saddens me.
Angie [A Whole Lot of Nothing] recently posted..Religion and Hypocrisy In other words- I may be mis-read
I named the post and I didn’t title it to get attention from people like you, at all. I remembered seeing the hashtag somewhere and thinking it was catchy. It seemed like a logical title, nothing more. Is that really important given the subject?
And, my intentions were to introduce a thoughtful dialogue and get people thinking. Best case? Open a few minds.
I have mixed emotions on this post. I do agree that as parents, we try to instill a set of beliefs in our children. We all worry that they will be led to make choices we may not agree with when they are away from home.
What bothers me is you not liking your child’s teacher. It shouldn’t matter what a teacher believes or how they live their life, as long as they are caring and teach the children what they need to learn. You say you have no problems with someone being gay, but it feels like there is a underlying tone that you, in fact, do not like them.
I am not trying to attack because I do agree with the core message – we want positive role models for our children. I just don’t agree with what I feel are some of your reasons for not liking others.
Can I ask why you choose public school as opposed to a private school who shares your beliefs or home schooling?
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I don’t agree with your sentiments, but I do respect them as YOURS. Many Americans (including myself) like to think that we come from a country based on tolerance. We don’t. We do, however, come from a country with a storied but rather impressive history of free speech. So thank you for expressing your feelings so eloquently and honestly.
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Gretchen is my friend. I’ve really debated about how to comment. She knows that we disagree on this issue and some other issues where she tends to be conservative and I tend to be liberal, but I still think she is a wonderful person. Therefore, I’m so glad to see that (most people) are not attacking her.
I think some of this comes down to the fact that some people believe you are born gay (like myself) and others don’t (like Gretchen, I think). Until this belief changes for people we will always have this issue, and it is sad, but it is also a fact.
I know that Gretchen really debated writing this and having it posted because she didn’t want to hurt anyone. She is not an intolerant person and she would never be rude or hurtful to anyone and would not condone her children acting that way either. Actually when we were first talking about it and she was getting my opinion on the situation I joked, “well what if he goes to school and she mentions her wife and he says, ‘You’re a sinner and you’re going to hell!” Well let’s just say she got upset with me and let me know right quick that type of behavior would NEVER be allowed.
Different Christians think different things are “wrong” or a sin, like drinking or dancing or lying, but that doesn’t mean we judge the people that do those things or think that they are a horrible person or condemn them to hell or whatever. It is the same for (most) Christians that believe homosexuality is a sin, just like lying. They aren’t intolerant, they just believe differently.
I think open, civilized conversation is the best way to move this issue along and to change people’s opinions. I’m glad that is what is happening today (for the most part).
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I was reading http://www.motherhoodinnyc.com/ (Thanks to Twitter) and posted this comment. Thought I share:
“Love when good Christian values incorporate elitism and phobic behaviors. I think Jesus would have applauded her choice to segregate her child from the real world.
Oh good lord lady!
Good moral foundation is built, in my oh-so-humble opinion, when you guide a child through the world, not when they are shielded. Compassion and understanding is developed by seeing the world for what it is- not how you want it to be.
You can disagree with a lifestyle, but you shouldn’t pretend it doesn’t exist.
Of course, that being said, I have to applaud her ( and Madam Scary’s) cajones for posting it. That’s courage and conviction.”
- Love DietCatholic TheBetsy
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Honestly, this just makes me sad. I’d be angry, but instead I feel defeated.
You want your child to learn about love and life, but only from the people you approve of? So basically, you want your child to be a clone of you instead of independent and free-thinking? Here’s my theory: if you teach your children love and compassion and kindness and respect, then I’m not sure why it would ever matter what the teacher’s sexual orientation is. I thought the Christian ideas were something along the lines of judge not, lest ye be judged (or something), and do unto others as you would have them do uh, unto you.
What if this was reversed? What if you were the teacher and the mother of a child in your class wasn’t accepting of your Christianity? How would that make you feel? (I’m not being snarky, I’m seriously asking you to put yourself in her shoes.)
The saddest part is that your feeling about this teacher, just because she is gay, is going to change how your child sees her, even if you never say anything directly. And that’s not fair. She could be the most fabulous teacher, most amazing mentor ever, but you’ll never know because you can’t see beyond the fact that she is a lesbian.
And that makes me sad. For you and for your kids.
And no, you don’t get control over public school teachers. Perhaps a private, christian school is a better option for your family. (Of course, that would only work if you were 100% sure there were no homosexuals there…)
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If this same post had been written by a Muslim – which I think everyone here is well aware of their views on homosexuality – would there be the same level of outrage? Or would it be written off as ‘well, everyone is allowed to have their own opinion in these matters. ‘ And that would have been the end of it in the name of, ironically, tolerance. Just asking.
What??
Personally, I don’t care WHO writes the post – if they are specifically being biased against someone who is homosexual, yes there is still outrage. Religion, in my opinion, is not something to hide behind. You don’t get a pass because of it – in fact, I hold you more accountable for your actions when you claim that someone else is behind them. There is no excuse, religious or otherwise, to be intolerant and judgmental.
pgoodness recently posted..Dawn and the terrible- no good- awful few hours
THANK YOU!!! Thank you for being brave and posting this. I have gay friends, and they do not flaunt their way of life in front of my children. One couple did, they have never been invited back to our home because of it. I am not against gay people, but I don’t think my than 2 year old needed to see two women kissing in my home.
I too would be worried about how the teacher portrayed her sexuality in the classroom. The classroom is not the place to discuss that, at least NOT in 4th grade! My kids are in 9th, 5th, 2nd, and Kindergarten.
I agree with you on all your points too. Each family needs to do what is best for theirs.
Crazy Lady recently posted..My Little Butthead…
If I were to flaunt my heterosexuality by kissing my husband in front of you and your children, would you invite me back to your house?
Angie [A Whole Lot of Nothing] recently posted..Religion and Hypocrisy In other words- I may be mis-read
I think that your gay friends would probably be really offended to read this comment. Your sentence “I am not against gay people, but I don’t think my then 2 year old needed to see two women kissing in my home” is a complete and utter contradiction. If you weren’t against homosexuals, you wouldn’t even bat an eyelash at your child witnessing what is an act of love between two individuals. I don’t care if they both happen to have a vagina or not. A kiss is an act of love – there’s nothing inappropriate about it no matter who it is between.
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They knew before they came over that I was not comfortable with display of affection in my home. They even promised that they would not because of my young children They choose to ignore that fact in MY HOME. If we were in THEIR home that would be different wouldn’t it?
Angie: How much and what kind of kissing?
I did not want them displaying that in my home in front of my young children. We once had a couple staying with us that were not married. Guess what? They did NOT share a room in MY HOME. Am I against them living together? Doesn’t matter what they do when not in my home.
Hubby is going to a party Saturday, I can not make it. It’s his (gay) receptionist birthday party and (gasp) her partner will be there too… I will be at work.
My bff is bi, and another great friend whom I have stayed with for a visit is a lesbian. Tell them I hate gay people…
Crazy Lady recently posted..My Little Butthead…
“Angie: How much and what kind of kissing?”
To even ask that question, kind of proves my point.
Any respectful adult would not go beyond an affectionate peck for their loved one in front of a child.
If your lesbian friends were making out in front of your child, they were disrespectful, no matter what their gender. If it was an affectionate peck, then I find that you asking them to hide their affection is inappropriate, no matter their gender as well.
Angie [A Whole Lot of Nothing] recently posted..Religion and Hypocrisy In other words- I may be mis-read
I am what most people would consider conservative, and I’m offended by your comment. Just the fact that you’d say you’re not against gay people yet express disgust at a display of affection between lesbians tells me you’re not really being honest with yourself. At least call a spade a spade and admit you’re at least a little against gay people.
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As to the “Role Model” issue, a teacher’s sexual orientation (either way) does not / should not define who they are. Just as their race, color, or social background should not define who they are. When talking to your kids I would suggest saying something like:
“While we don’t agree with (blank), your teacher will receive the same respect and kindness that our family gives to any of your other teachers. Every person on this earth is different – not necessarily better, worse, or less than – just different and that’s good.”
I don’t believe that sexual orientation is a choice – you are what you are. Being Religious is a choice. You are right when you suggested that I would be upset if my son’s teacher was an ultra Conservative Christian. I would be concerned that they would try to spread their Religious views to my child. Here’s where being an involved parent comes in though. Get to know your child’s teacher by attending PTA meetings, class parties, and volunteering whenever possible. If my *hypothetical* Ultra Religious teacher was a great teacher and kept her personal life to herself then we would be good – no problems. I haven’t been in your situation yet, but I hope this is how I would react.
Thanks for such a thought provoking article.
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I’m a Christian too (Catholic, which some evangelical Christians view as “other”). And we choose to send our kids to Catholic school, mainly because we just think it’s a great school, not to shelter them from outside influences.
But I still don’t feel much kinship with this post. Part of my religion is about accepting and loving people as they are. Especially in public school settings.
However, she was brave to write it and post it here (although you could feel the justifications and trepidations with every word), and Jill was brave to post it. A good tolerance lesson for us all, even as feelings of intolerance are discussed.
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Thank you for a well thought out and respectful post. It is pretty brave of you to put your opposing view out for everyone to comment and judge. I completely understand the need and desire to expose our children to the best role models. My 6 year old started at a public school this year and is picking up all kinds of behavior from the older kids. But I guess I don’t understand why a gay person can’t be a positive role model. Does the teacher behave in a way that you do not want your children to emulate? (Aside from being gay, that is. I assume she and the other teachers in the school do not practice in PDA at school.)
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I wish my kids teacher didn’t have all that red hair. It really conflicts with my values and i worry what my child will learn from it.
That is exactly this argument.
How someone who is a public servant going of themselves to each
My kid’s teacher wears sparkly shoes. I think sparkly shoes are distracting and it conflicts with my values about sparkly shoes in a teaching environment.
(it’s a joke people, but is seriously the same level of absurdity to me)
pgoodness recently posted..Dawn and the terrible- no good- awful few hours
I love this argument. This is exactly the way I feel as well. The teacher was born that way. It’s not a “lifestyle choice”. And if you believe in God, then the argument exists that God created her that way for a reason.
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THIS – EXACTLY!
Jill – I agreed with your comment on the blog where you admitted that including dialogue from people that do not agree 100% with you is good. I think it is very good.
I love people. People just fascinate me in both good and bad ways but always interest me. That’s the best part of reading blogs IMO because they open your eyes to different views. Although I am a conservative Christian, I do not agree with your guest poster. But I commend you for posting it because people who might think along the same lines as your poster will read the comments and maybe re-thinking things.
That is awesome.
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“But I commend you for posting it because people who might think along the same lines as your poster will read the comments and maybe re-thinking things.”
Honestly, I hadn’t thought of that. You make me feel a bit better reading that and hoping that people will learn from us.
Angie [A Whole Lot of Nothing] recently posted..Religion and Hypocrisy In other words- I may be mis-read
I feel that open discourse is good. I hope that respectful honest opinions are okay for people on both sides of the issue.
I tried to write respectfully. I TOO was hoping that some folks would see my point. That point being: I am just a parent, who’s trying to raise her kids with a value system in place that fits our family, and I know other people are doing that too, and just because mine doesn’t fit yours, doesn’t mean I’M a bad person.
I was hoping to shed some light on the idea that people who disagree with the homosexual lifestyle are not to be hated. People who sling gay slurs or spread gossip or are hateful in any way, those are the ones who deserve to be put in their place. I did none of that, and I really just wish that people who say they are open-minded to loving everyone, would also be open-minded to me. Like, “Okay Gretchen, I don’t agree with your point of view but you are entitled to it.”
Thank you to the posters who have given me that.
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Personally, my belief is that there isn’t a “point” to be taken. People are who they are. To discriminate someone (beyond the felon-type), is preposterous to me.
Angie [A Whole Lot of Nothing] recently posted..Religion and Hypocrisy In other words- I may be mis-read
“People who sling gay slurs or spread gossip or are hateful in any way, those are the ones who deserve to be put in their place. I did none of that…”
I disagree. You are doing the same thing – you simply hide it better. But, your fear and prejudice still shine through. I am not angry with you. I do not hate you. I don’t even judge you. I’m simply sad.
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Gretchen. I know in my heart that you aren’t a bad person. We’ve had many civil disagreements before. We share a lot of the same morals, disagree on a lot of other ideas and but we always learn something new about ourselves in our open discourse. At least I have every time we’ve “argued” online.
I love people. Al kinds of people. I want my children to love people. All kinds of people. One of the statements that was most shocking to me in this post was that you want to surround yourselves with “like minded” people. Sure I want my kids to identify with Polish people and Christian people but I desperately ache for them to have friends from all walks of life. I would never give them less.
I applaud both you and Jill for this dialogue today.
Exactly, OHMommy. xo
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
…teach, who also happens to be in a committed loving relationship ISN’T the kind of role model a child needs is beyond me.
For the record, im a raging athiest who pays to send their child to a christian preschool. And my children have studied every major religion. Because i think children deserve to learn about the world around them, not just my one narrow perspective.
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I don’t care what you teach your children as long as you don’t teach them that it is ok to go to Princeton because those folks are nuts.
That made diet pepsi some out my nose.
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OMG.
I totally needed that laugh (as I still feel like a shitbag for my commentary on this thread).
I love you for that comment and moment of laughter.
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
ALL children – no matter the values system their parents wish to instill in them – are better off if they are exposed to people with different values. Yeah, as odd as it feels to me to make such an absolute statement – to assert that something is true for all, I do believe it. ALL children are better off if they are exposed to people different from themselves.
Parents should be grateful for opportunities to discuss with their children the idea that different people have different values. Parents should be ready to explain their family values. They should be ready and able to help their children understand that while some other people do not share those values, their family has chosen to believe [insert value here] because [insert reason here]. When children are exposed to conflicting views, parents have a wonderful opportunity to explain why their family believes what they believe. If parents cannot explain to their children why they hold their values, then they probably should think more deeply about it. If they can clearly explain it, then a child’s observation of others who think differently should not be threatening; discussing it is a an opportunity to reinforce their chosen family values. If a child is old enough (and thoughtful enough) to consider the values that his/her parents are promoting, to observe competing values, to evaluate those competing values, and to make an independent choice, then that child is past the point at which sheltering him/her will do any good.
My advice: embrace the opportunity to discuss your values with your child.
I have to be honest, I almost felt like I was reading something my mother had written.
That is in no way meant to be hateful, I love my mother more than anything.
I am a 20 year old libertarian with liberal tendencies. I believe that Gay is OK.
I have to say, how did you find out she was gay?
As the child of two teachers, I know the rules laid out for them when it comes to personal lives. They are allowed to talk about their families. They are not allowed to talk about religion. They are not allowed to discuss their sex lives.
Did she merely mention “my wife” or “my partner” in passing? If so, you cannot legally fault her. It is no different than “my husband” when it comes to laws. And unless she is discussing dildos and other inappropriate matter in class (which is ludicrous, she cannot do that and certainly would not in 4th grad), she is not going to say or do anything that will influence your child in the manner of homosexuality.
I grew up in a household without cable, got my first cell phone at 16, went to church every sunday, and was very sheltered.
As a result, I left the church at 17, dislike the republican view very much, and made some poor choices in college.
Your children need to understand that tolerance and love are vital in living on this planet. Trying to shield them from things that are going to inevitably come up (and quite often, given the gay rights movement at this time) will do nothing but bring resentment when they grow up.
Teach Jesus’ love, and remember that he spent his time with people who were very different from Him. He didn’t shelter himself.
Thank you for your honesty and (mostly) respect, but please think about your children’s future in the faith if it is forced upon them.
Thank you, Gretchen for sharing your feelings in a respectful way. And thank you Jill, for having the courage to share this on your blog.
It has been an interesting week in the “parent blog” world, in regards to how people react to others’ choices for their children. I am glad to see that so many people here can engage in an honest but respectful dialog. I would just urge everyone on both sides of the issue to make sure they are not putting words in Gretchen’s mouth, or making assumptions. Assuming that Gretchen is a bad or hateful person because of her concerns about this teacher is just as bad as Gretchen assuming this person might be a bad or immoral person because of their sexual orientation (for the record, I don’t think that’s what she is doing).
I think for all of us, our love for our children is non-negotiable. Would the conservative Christian moms be happy if their children grew up to reject their belief system? My guess would be no, but I highly doubt that would change the fact that they love their child very much. In the same way, there are parents that might be upset if their children grew up to embrace conservative Christianity, but these parents would also not love their children any less. Whether it’s high fructose corn syrup, circumcision, gay teachers….we all have strong feelings about certain issues. But at the heart of it, I really believe we all want what is best for our kids.
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You’ve done a nice job keeping emotion out of your argument, and for that I commend you. Unfortunately, you have put so much effort in to limiting the emotion (and I really do appreciate that) that you forgot to inlcude reason in your argument. Case in point: you say: “But I, on the other hand, feel that there is a time and a place for kids to experience the world. I feel like it’s my job to determine when that time should be. I don’t want my kids to see PG-13 movies before they’re 13.” A trade group called the Motion Picture Association of America decides what movies are appropriate for a 13 year-old–you do not. I hope you take a moment to wonder what other “decisions” you make for your kids and beliefs you hope to instill that are actually rooted in someone else’s view of the world.
To Scary Mommy ( full disclosure, she is my wife)–you are a shining star. My adoration for you is matched only by my admiration.
And that last line pretty much just made me cry. So sweet!
Lessons in Life and Light recently posted..A Contribution and why I hate Katy Perry
For real. My kids will NEVER watch PG-13 movies. Not even when they’re 30. (because I’m never letting them leave me.)
And… aaaaaaaaaaaaaaawe:) Jill! Your hubs is precious!:) (Don’t tell him I said that though!)
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AWE! That was the most awesome tribute thingy to your wife, Mr. ScaryMommy. It’s lovely to see you pipe up.
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
When I first started reading this entry, I was shaking my head … in disagreement with your view of role models. But … about halfway through I started to understand. While we may have a difference of opinion on what kind of person is an acceptable role model, I understand what you’re saying and would feel the same under different circumstances.
Cat @ 3 Kids and Us recently posted..A Multi-Tasking Mishap
First of all, I just want to say how impressed I am with you both, that even though you quite apparently disagree, you are willing to have this discussion in such a public forum and with so much respect.
I’m sure I had gay teachers and I’m sure I didn’t even know it until later in life. Looking back, I can think of several whose sexual orientation I was oblivious to. I had only one teacher in my public school career that I REALLY did not care for and he was as heterosexual as they come and was asked to leave our school for sexual comments towards 14 year old girls, including me. He’s just a bad example of a person, no matter what his sexual choice. My point is, that I don’t think it’s usually on a child’s radar, as to what gender their teacher’s partner is. I know it wasn’t on mine, especially in the 4th grade.
If you want to surround yourself with people who have the same beliefs as you I agree with what some other commenters have stated, you would have to pull your children from public school and put them in private or homes school them. I know these may not be options for you so therefore, you kids are going to have some gay teachers. But as long as they are teaching your children well and are good people who have your children’s best interest at heart, being gay, well it just doesn’t matter (at least to me).
I guess my main question to you is do you feel like if your son came to the realization that his teacher chooses to be in a same sex relationship that he would be influenced by that? I’m just curious as to what you biggest issue with it is…
Thanks for being brave enough to put your thoughts and beliefs out here…
And I also REALLY like Jana’s comment.
Elaine recently posted..Five Drawers and a Door
As a gay man and an ordained minister, I feel like I should add my two cents. I do have to say I agree with part of what you wrote. Teachers should keep their professional lives separate from their personal ones. However, that means if Ms. Taylor cannot talk about her wife, then Mrs. Jones should refrain from speaking about her husband. What’s good for the goose, so to speak.
One of the most basic rights we have as Americans is that to equality. What you seem to state in your post is that you wish to revoke this from your son’s teacher. What you want from her is unfair. It would be akin to those of us with dissenting opinions taking away your freedom of speech. Not only that, but it seems that your post speaks more of the fact that you wish to refrain from having to teach your children about tolerance and diversity. Which is incredibly unfortunate is one of your children happens to be LGBTQ. You have already made it clear go them that gays deserve different treatment.
In closing, I just wish to say three things. Firstly, I believe that a good and infallible God made us exactly as he imagined. Secondly, that even greater than our right to equality is our right to free speech, and I applaud you for using it. And thirdly, I believe that God can give our children no greater blessing than those who wish to help nurture and shape their future. May the Lord bless them as well.
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And THIS is the comment that makes me want to cry. Tears of happiness.
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I want to go to your church. Love love love this comment.
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Thank you Kyle for that gentle reminder to love our neighbor – no matter what.
Blogs really need “Like” buttons!
Jackie recently posted..10 reasons Im glad that its fall
You’re right. In public school if one thing is off-limits, then it all should be. I agree.
We shouldn’t get off for Christmas. While I love it, I think it should be just 2 or 3 days off, instead of 2 weeks, and it should happen with all the different religions. That would be fair.
I don’t want to revoke anything from my child’s teacher that’s not part of her contract. I would love for her to talk about science all day long. But I am not okay with her talking about her partner any more than the atheist is okay with their teacher forcing them to say “UNDER GOD” in the Pledge of Allegiance – which we all know now cannot be forced for a child to do.
Let me just be clear. If she chooses to discuss her homosexual lifestyle with students, that will upset me. That is my concern. Not the fact THAT she’s a homosexual. Not the possibility that my son will know she’s a homosexual. I am concerned that she will communicate her values as being values that are to be accepted as a whole by the class. That is not part of the curriculum.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
I think that what I’m really struggling with is the fact that you thing being homosexual is against some “value”.
She IS homosexual. There ARE homosexuals. You can’t deny that they exist any more than you can deny that there are black people and Asian people and Jews and Catholics and Muslims and Germans and Canadians and even Texans. (That’s a joke, I’m also included in some of the groups I just listed.)
There are gay people in this world, you cannot deny their existence. Same with vegetarians. You may not be able to tell by looking at them, but they are out there, and sooner or later, your children will meet them and may even become one. The best way to to have them be comfortable around, respect, and maybe even befriend, a vegetarian is for them to meet a nice one that is a good person, somebody they like. Then they are far less likely to hate or be mean to other vegetarians if they actually know one. (Same goes for gays, if you didn’t get that.)
But WHY would she choose to discuss it?? What on earth makes you think she will? Just because she is a homosexual? Sorry, but this is fear. Which is the very definition of homophobia.
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Gretchen…I’m not done reading the comments and I haven’t quite formed my response to the whole post, I had to jump in here and say the kids in Texas don’t get off school for Christmas, it’s winter break, a break between semesters, a break after finals, it just happens to fall around Christmas time. While most people refer to it as Christmas break, it’s not because of Christmas that we get two weeks out of school.
Aunt Crazy
Your statement here has demonstrated that, despite your protestations to the contrary, you are clearly a bigot. You are not okay with your son’s teacher talking about her partner? Does this also mean that you are not okay with a heterosexual, married, teacher talking about his or her partner? Or does this only apply to this particular teacher who happens to be a lesbian?
Would you be so kind as to explain to us just exactly what IS, in your mind, a “homosexual lifestyle”?
For that matter, what “values” are you referring to when you say you are “concerned that she will communicate her values as being values that are to be accepted as a whole by the class”?
Your responses thus far have been extremely vague and uncommunicative, and make it easy to perceive your statements as nothing more than attempts to justify a predisposition to bigotry. That is … sad, to say the least.
William G. Hartwell recently posted..Of Dreams- Divine Guidance- and Shoes
Gretchen – I haven’t read through the comments yet. I will once I post this, and grab some more coffee – wowsa. I just wanted to give you and Jill and virtual high five. I have “known” you, Gretchen, for over two years – you’re one of the most thorough and deep bloggers I know. It’s hip and cool and easy to always be agreeable with the masses – there’s safety in numbers. Especially in bloggy world.
You have obviously put much thought behind how you’re raising your children. Whether we agree or disagree on whatever topic, I admire that. There’s too much autopilot parenting going on in this country.
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Wow, someone kicked a hornet’s nest, didn’t they?
I have to start by saying that I am a conservative Christian (Assemblies of God, but I’m also a recovering Catholic), I believe in being completely honest with my kids, while also sheltering them & teaching them to love and respect everyone. That’s a heck of a tightrope to walk!
For instance, my children know that there are homosexuals in the world I hesitate to say “some of my best friends are gay” because that instantly makes me sound like a bigot, but it is true. And some of my other best friends are vehemently opposed to anything that even looks the slightest bit “gay”. I love them all, and respect their different viewpoints, and one way I’d show that love & respect is to not invite them all to the same dinner party, LOL
My cousin is a gay man (we have kinda known he would be since he was about 6) in a committed relationship, so I discussed this with my sons on our way to visit. I was not warning them about the monsters they might encounter, I was preparing them (especially my very blunt autistic son), and everything went fine. No, I didn’t want my cousin and his BF to make out in front of my kids – but if he was dating a girl, I wouldn’t have wanted that either! I tell my boys that they aren’t allowed to say “that’s so gay” about something that’s stupid, it’s a mean thing to say, and that the F word is as bad as the N word, and neither is permitted in my house. In fact, no profanity at all is allowed in my house, and I’d be far more offended if someone cursed in front of my kids than if they kissed.
I sympathize with Gretchen, I know how hard it is as a Christian to teach your children Biblical values and God’s word, but to also be sensitive to an ever-changing world and teach your kids to love and respect others – ALL others. I am very honest with my kids, they know what the Bible says, what the church says, and what mommy thinks – even when those are different things. I am not against gay unions, and AM against gay-bashing & bullying, and I do NOT believe that God hates gays or wants them to be miserable or suicidal or even to become priests. Last month one of my friends, who is a lesbian, came and visited us for a few days (yes she slept in my house). My son asked once where her husband was, I explained that she prefers to date other women but is currently single, and the subject was dropped. I felt like that was a “win” for tolerance. That friend is also a Roman Catholic, and THAT took more explanation to my kids than her sexual preference. It takes more effort to explain the war in Afghanistan (where my husband is serving) and the bad guys vs. good guys and the gray area in between than it does that sometimes people love other men/women instead of someone of the opposite sex. At the end of the day, I just prefer to live and let live, and if one of my kids’ teachers was gay, or Muslim, or atheist, or thought the original Becky on Roseanne was better than Sarah Chalke, I would tell my child that it was none of our business, so long as he is still learning from that educator & comes home with good grades. He will encounter people in life who see things differently, the important thing is to show love and to disagree respectfully. Hate just brings more hate and it never solves anything.
Also?
Yes, Gay is Ok.
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Here’s my problem from a child development standpoint. And perhaps you can help me resolve it…
When we say things like “I don’t want my kids to be exposed to gays because I want them to have my values,” we’re setting up an us against them mentality that kids then carry forward. And we can’t blame the kids. They’re kids, they have kid brains.
So while one can speak in platitudes about bullying being wrong, we can not expect a child who hears his or her family members talking about being gay as a sin against nature or God, to then have the maturity of mind to then say, “It’s okay to be different.”
Now what I don’t understand and have a difficult time resolving on a religious level…
As Christians (I was raised Methodist), we follow the teachings of Jesus. Jesus doesn’t speak about gays and lesbians. At all. He doesn’t provide any lessons on God’s feelings towards them. What is taught, however, is that we are put on this earth to love one another.
So as Christians, why does it matter if someone is gay or not. It didn’t concern Jesus, why should it concern us?
And this is asked in sincerity, not as a lob, dig or slight.
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It is an interesting topic here that deserves to be discussed. I had two gay uncles, one was HIV+ for about 5 years or so and then things took a turn and he died. We call is AIDS and I called it a tragedy because it was. He was 49.
My other uncle died last year, he was 90. I spent a lot of time with both of them. It never made me look at other men in a sexual way. Women are simply far too sexy and attractive to me.
I send my children to a Jewish day school. In part I do it because the local public school is a mess, but I also like that many of the values are in sync with mine. I understand and appreciate why Texan mama wants to surround her children with people who have values that are similar to her own.
But my kids play soccer, they do gymnastics, Krav Maga and all sorts of other activities that place them in public with all different kinds of people. I like that. I want them to be exposed to others.
My job as a father is to teach, guide and shield when necessary. In regard to school, I don’t want any of the teachers to talk about their sex lives with my kids. It is not appropriate.
I’ll love my children regardless of their sexuality/political beliefs/religious choices, but I do have preferences to what they choose.
Well said!
I absolutely disagree with this, and as a liberal Christian I firmly belive that Gay is OK. I have so many thoughts and opinions, but I’m going to turn on my filter so as not to sound like a total bitch.
Todd Agnew (a CHRISTIAN artist) released a song a few years ago called “My Jesus”. It is amazing. I encourage you to listen to it, or just read the lyrics.
Our Jesus was loving and kind and merciful and did i mention LOVING? And not just to those people who shared his belief system. He pretty much loved everyone. and THAT is the kind of person that I want to be.
“Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and the least of these
He loved the poor and accosted the comfortable
So which one do you want to be?
Cause my Jesus would never be accepted in my church
The blood and dirt on His feet might stain the carpet
But He reaches for the hurting and despises the proud
I think He’d prefer Beale St. to the stained glass crowd
And I know that He can hear me if I cry out loud
I want to be like my Jesus”
(http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/my-jesus-lyrics-todd-agnew/8e759ccf72670a224825716d00455768)
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Thank you for posting this. This was very interesting to read, both the blog and the comments. I would just like to add that I am confused why you would think “openly lesbian” would mean she is discussing her sexuality with her very young students? If a teacher is “openly heterosexual” I wouldn’t expect her to be talking about those things in my 4th grade sons class. I think that, if nothing else, this woman is an example that it is okay to be who you are, and that is an important lesson for our kids to learn.
This is not an issue of belief systems to be “discussed.” This is a human rights issue. Very, very saddened to see this post and much of the discussion that completely misses the mark.
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Well said, Deb. It’s horrifying to me that this kind of bigotry being displayed and defended.
Yes. This is not acceptable. The belief/concern is not acceptable. The whole thing is so beyond unacceptable, and I can’t believe it’s being talked about like these kinds of feelings are okay. They aren’t. If the post were about how the parent would prefer their teacher not be black, it wouldn’t be okay.
This is not okay, either. This. Is. Not. Okay. And it needs to be said: THIS IS NOT OKAY. GAYS ARE MORE THAN OKAY. BUT THIS IS NOT.
Please don’t misunderstand. I totally get that this is a Human Rights Issue, and I completely disagree with everything said in this post. I just don’t understand, and I am saddened, when people hear “homosexual” and equate that with immoral. It would be immoral for any teacher to be discussing there sexuality with 4th grade kids.
You stated, “I replied that the reason I was concerned came from a fear that the issue of her sexuality, if discussed openly,”
Why would that ever even come up? Do openly heterosexual teachers openly discuss their sexuality in class? If not, why would this teacher bring up her sexuality. Just because she is a lesbian doesn’t mean that she doesn’t know when to talk about her sexual orientation.
When I was in 4th grade, the last thing I thought about was how my teachers slept with. Sex yuck, teachers and sex even yuckier.
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I was a bit thrown off with the post title, “Is Gay Ok”. Not only do I think gay is ok, I think the world is downright better with gay people in it. My gay friends and former co-workers are some of the most generous, caring, thoughtful, spiritual, and supportive people I know.
I have a three year old and he is already surrounded by families (parents, kids, etc.) that have beliefs that I don’t particularly agree with. And, I’m okay with that. I have a pretty low threshold with what is “okay”. I really just want my child to be surrounded by people that help my child become a kind, curious, non-asshole.
I have no idea what kind of personal lives any of my elementary and high school teachers had. I just remember thinking my teachers were the smartest, most organized and supportive people I could have asked for. And, our curriculum was too jam packed to have the luxury of talking about the teachers’ personal lives.
Lesley recently posted..Stunned and Saddened
I was raised as a conservative christian in an Assembly of God church and although my parents have mellowed out quite a bit…it might have something to do with my brothers drug addiction as a teenager…we lived grew up in a very strict household and were in church 3 x’s a week. I have since converted to Catholicism and am very happy where I am with my faith but when I look back and think about that church and the beliefs they had all that I remember is hellfire and damnation. If you don’t believe what they believe you are going to hell. I’m not sure if they are still that way or not…we left when I was a teenager. But because of being raised that way it took me YEARS to figure out that I don’t have to worry about if *I* think someone’s lifestyle is okay or not and that *I* don’t have to be the judge and jury. All *I* am responsible to do is love them as God would love them and with that teach my children to do the same. Now…would I be okay with my child having a gay teacher? As long as their core morals and values were positive and loving SURE! The only thing I would not be okay with is a bitter old hag that spreads hate and judgment. But even still…I will also teach my children what our core values and morals are and to think for themselves if they are presented with something they feel is questionable. So if they did end up with some hateful old hag spreading some negative message I pray that our teaching at home will be what prevails and hopefully my children will love the teacher in spite of his/her negativity and maybe shed a little light into his/her life.
So I guess what I’m saying is this…you can’t control who/what they come into contact with. But you can teach them to think for themselves and teach them what you feel is right and then what will be will be. Unless you want to homeschool and never leave your home you can’t control their environment so all you can do is teach them, release them and pray.
One other thing though…I understand and respect your decision and beliefs but please think about one thing…in this day and age with so many teenagers committing suicide and suffering from depression due to their sexual orientation…please let your children know that you love them no matter who or what they are. I have seen with my own eyes a child that grew up like I did who is almost 30 now and has severe problems because of his sexuality. He is afraid he will go to hell if he is gay. And he’s afraid that his family won’t love him or accept him if he is gay. I’ve talked and talked and talked to him…but he just can’t deal with it. It is a very sad thing to witness and it is a miserable existence for him.
Let God be the judge and jury. Do the best you can with your children and then let Him worry about keeping your children on the right track and just love…it is so very freeing.
Love to everyone…even those that I may not agree with,
Megan
Megan @ Red Dirt and Crazy recently posted..How It Came to BeMy Farmer Boy and Me – Part 4
I applaud both Jill and Gretchen for writing this post and for hosting it on her blog. It takes an open mind and great amounts of courage.
I’ve read just about every comment and let me tell ya… there’s a lot of them. Long ones too!
Gay is ok. I see nothing wrong with it at all. Love is love. And everyone deserves to have true love & happiness in their life. And nobody should say whether it’s right or wrong.
I don’t agree with Gretchen but that’s the beauty of it. I don’t have to. I do respect her for it thought and Jill for having hers as well as everyone else for posting theirs.
Thank you ladies!
Jackie recently posted..10 reasons Im glad that its fall
Fourth graders discussing a teacher’s heterosexuality? That’s crazy! When has that *ever* been appropriate? Wait, I mean a teacher’s homosexuality. No, that’s also crazy and would never be appropriate.
Yes, Gay is okay. As for my kids, I think it’s more important for them to grow into young men who can think for themselves than it is to regulate their environment so that it’s a reflection of me. They know how I feel about things. We talk all the time about things – about how I feel about things – about how THEY feel about things. And I have always encouraged them (sometimes more successfully than others) to think for themselves. But that’s just me – US – and how we roll.
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Wow…I respect you for having an opinion about this, but it just makes me sad that there are people that still think the way you do. I understand you want your child to have a good role model as a teacher, but just because she is a lesbian does not mean anything. Honestly, who cares if she said “my wife” or anything like that? You should be comfortable enough with raising your kids that they wouldn’t care. Another thing I do have a problem with is why teach your kids your opinions/beliefs about gay people? Why don’t you let them grow up to have a mind of their own and just let them grow up and make the choice of what they feel is “right or wrong” when it comes to that topic. Sexuality is not going to be a topic in my house until my son asks questions and I will teach him that there are different people in the world and go on from there. I would never shelter my child about these things or give him my personal feelings about this situation. I just feel that children should be raised with open minds, especially about others because they are going to be faced with so many different people in the world why let your child judge these people before they know them just because of what they do privately in their own home?
My husband is black and I am white, I would hate to hear what you think of that.
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I think everyone here is just doing the best they can to raise their children to be good people and I don’t believe any of you would not support their children no matter what they turned out to be.
But there is something in these posts that I have to speak up about – the term “recovering Catholic”. It’s not OK to bash conservative Christians? OK then, it’s not OK to bash Catholics. I love the church (warts and all) and I take offense.
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I can’t speak for the person who said that. But I know that I’ve used the term “recovering Christian” before to describe myself. I never intended it as offensive. My experience with Christianity was very engulfing, and it really has been a struggle to “recover” from that. Thank you for saying something, because I honestly hadn’t thought of how it would sound/feel to hear if I were someone who just came across it, with no idea of the back story to it.
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That was me, and I apologize. I’ve never meant it as an insult to Catholics or to the church, I’ve always just said it tongue-in-cheek because I don’t think anyone can ever completely STOP being Catholic. I still catch myself doing the Sign of the Cross when I hear ambulances, for instance. The religion and rituals I grew up with are still deeply ingrained and are still part of who I am today, therefore I don’t consider myself an ex-Catholic. So I meant it to more poke fun at myself.
No offense was intended at all.
I had a great big huge massive discussion about this with the only person I’ve ever met who knew how to disagree without bad feelings getting in the way. I applaud your friendship, that you two can do the same. It’s rare, and precious!!
Here’s the point I think Texan Momma is trying to make. Everyone has a limit to what they think is morally acceptable. The problem is, that limit is vastly different for everyone. Where is your moral limit? How would you respond if the world became okay with something that was morally wrong to you? Would you pretend you’re okay with it around your children, just because society is headed that way? Our limits are informed by different sources, so they’re going to be vastly different. To criticize someone for using religion as a source of guidance is hardly fair. The question shouldn’t be focused on her thoughts about homosexuality — maybe a better question is how would you cope if your personal moral limit were exceeded?
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Thank you. SO very much. I’m just too exhausted to comment more.
Texan Mama recently posted..Im Scary Today!!
The problem is, to consider homosexuality a “moral limit” is the same as considering the melanin content of one’s skin, the presence of absence of a “Y” chromosome, whether one is dexterous or sinister, or the redness of one’s hair, to be “moral limits”. Every one of them is predetermined from the moment of conception, despite the fantasies of those who advertise the ability to “cure” them.Every one of them has been the source of religious and/or societal condemnation. Every one of them has been the cause of death and torture throughout human history. Every one of them is, in reality, completely lacking in any moral content, other than that imputed to them by bigots.
William G. Hartwell recently posted..Of Dreams- Divine Guidance- and Shoes
I was raised in a home with v. strict rules regarding tv/movies/music and who/where we could spend time with/at. Very heavily sheltered. (or isolated. Potato/Potahto imho)
I’m now very much not in that lifestyle, though at times some of the beliefs and/or prejudices that I was raised with rear their ugly heads, causing me to have to step back and think about the issue that is triggering them atm. Which is why I pondered before answering, and it’s why my answer is maybe a little more fragmented.
No, I wouldn’t have a problem with my child’s teacher being gay or lesbian. Just not really an issue. 4th grade teachers shouldn’t be having in-depth conversations about sexuality in class, regardless of which gender they prefer. And I have no problem with my kids knowing that some women fall in love with men, and some women fall in love with women. (and men with women, and men with men)
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I guess I can relate to one part of this….
I mean, I would NEVER want my child to be around you and your beliefs. ugh.
but don’t you see how counterproductive a comment like that is? how can you stand on a moral ground of acceptance and tolerance when you won’t even consider the fact that this woman is human, and like you, has opinions and experiences that shape the way she teaches her children? why does it have to be like that?
Alexis recently posted..gay marriage
Yeah…found myself thinking the same thing, Alexis.
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this blog post made me crabby. I had a 4th grade teacher growing up who was a basket case. She could barely stand up, she was not well, she was (we found out) going through a horrendous break up/divorce, she was weepy in class, she was heterosexual, she (I now know, but I didn’t know what the smell was at the time) often smelled like vodka, she was eventually replaced by a very strict older christian woman who was super mean!
also in high school, I had a teacher who had a profound impact on me and many others. He shaped the course of my life, to this day. My life would be different if I had never been exposed to him. To this day, we are friends. He’s gay. We have never discussed it. Why? It’s NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I never knew he was gay till I was older, and gee, it has never come up in our meetings, since I am not interested in the least bit in his love life, nor is he in mine.
geez. your point of view is so milquetoastily articulated, but I can read the fear between the lines. please step up to the human plate.
perhaps this has already been stated, but why do we add “openly” to lesbian or gay? Because they don’t hide who they are? Does anyone every say “openly heterosexual”?
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i am openly heterosexual. :-)
seriouslyahomemaker recently posted..Our Wedding
Everyone is entitled to their opinion – on homosexuality and everything – but I fail to see what this teacher’s sexual orientation has to do with her being a good or bad role model.
I can relate to the part of the post about finding good role models and how difficult it can be to decide who is a good or bad role model. What I cannot relate to is how homosexuality plays a part in any of this or how your post seems to equate homosexuality with being a bad role model.
And, as others have asked, what if any of your children are gay? They will have grown up being told that what they are is wrong. I can’t even imagine what kind of impact that will have.
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Practicing homosexuality is a choice that makes someone a bad role model? Yep, denying who you are, believing ashamed and afraid of it, believing that you aren’t rght or good enough is SUCH a better example to set for a child.
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Sorry if this came off as mean. But, it just makes me sad to see people writing that gay is a choice, etc. I mean, COME ON!! It’s comments like those that force young kids to take their own lives. So so disheartening. Also, why I HATE religion. I feel like people use it as an excuse to hate and discriminate. “It’s ok b/c this big dude that lives in the sky thinks it is”. meh.
I’m sorry, but I really take offense to your insinuation that all people who are part of organized religion or who believe in God are ignorant or blindly follow wherever their leaders take them. I agree with you that children needlessly take their lives over self-doubt due to their sexuality, but I don’t agree that all religious people hate and discriminate, as you have implied.
You can’t have it both ways–either you’re tolerant and discriminatory, or you’re not. You don’t get to pick and choose who you’re tolerant of based on your own ideology.
Alexis recently posted..gay marriage
wow, i can’t type. i meant to say, “either you’re tolerant and nondiscriminatory, or you’re not.” whoops.
Alexis recently posted..gay marriage
My son is 3 and knows there are gay people in the world.
He is also being raised by two agnostic parents who are excited for him to learn about all religions and choose one that is right for him.
Don’t pre-judge the teacher.
She will make good, solid choices when it comes to her students…..as a teacher that is what we are all trying to do.
yesterday at the playground after school, i sat with a group of 5 women… as i do every single weekday afternoon. the question was posed, by me, i think… “What do you guys think? Were there always this many gay people (historically) and they just kept their sexuality in the closet, or do we have more gay people today?”
the discussion was good.
we have a mormon, a catholic who is pro-choice and pro-gay, and 2 non-religion carrying moms there. not sure about jennifer… she hasn’t said!
this discussion here is even better.
so glad to have read of it what i have. need. more. time!
thanks to you all for putting in the time to share your views respectfully.
-angie
I don’t know what I can add that hasn’t been said already, so I’ll just say this.
I look forward to the day when people stop judging anyone whose life is lived differently from theirs and we have no need to “open up” discussions like this.
Tolerance, love and peace. I wish it for us all.
avasmommy recently posted..Outside
I love the idea of this post. Everyone has different views and its nice that you opened your blog to this.
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Living in Northern California, I grew up in an area that had a large homosexual population. Thankfully, my parents, who were at that time fairly religious Jews, exposed us to all aspects of the real world. They encouraged me to be friends with colors, races, nationalities, and people of different sexual orientation that what was comfortable to them.
I’m doing the same now for my kids. In fact my 7 year old daughter asked me the other day if two ladies can marry each other. I said, “of course they can.” Her next question was, “who has the baby?” To which I answered, “whoever wants to.” She then followed up with the question about two men marrying each other. You know my response … And then hers? “Well that’s good because boys are weird and they should stick together.”
BTW, my 1st grader also has a homosexual teacher this year. And the only thing anybody ever said about him was that he is THE best teacher at the school. Nothing about his sexuality. Nothing about how flamboyant he is. Just that he’s an amazing teacher.
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hahahaha boys should stick together? That’s hilarious and I appreciate the inserted comedy in this tense convo ;-)
This is obviously a topic that brings out the comments. :) Not sure if you’ll read this, but I wanted to give my two cents anyway. As an agnostic, I have never felt that other parents think I am sheltering my children. Just the opposite. Most religious parents give me the impression that I’m ruining my children by keeping them from God. I give my children firm moral teachings, but somehow, without God in the mix, all my work is deemed pointless.
I was ready to respond, “You’re openly heterosexual. Would discussion of your sexuality take away from educational time if you were a teacher? No.” However, when you brought up the example of a religious teacher influencing my child, I understood your concerns. That does worry me, in this small, religious town we live in. Hmm. I’m going to have to do some more thinking about that. Thanks for stirring things up.
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And liberals accuse of conservative christians of intolerance? Why is intolerantance of a conservative christian mother’s wish to keep her children innocent of the sins in the world for as long as possible, unacceptable?
I have a gay brother. I am confronted with the dilema, what would you do if …fill in blank… were gay (or liberal). My eldest daughter (34) is a far left liberal, and we still love her and enjoy the friendly debates. Several of my childrens friends/my “adopted kids” are gay. I still love them!!! And accept their lifestyle. I do not condone it, but I love them.
I raised my children with the knowledge of our beliefs, and the acknowledgement of other beliefs. They are much more tolerant of others belief’s than most of posters here. And I am their mother, a conservative christian who chose which pond my baby fishies were going to swim in as they were growing up, much like Texan Mama is doing.
Do you feel the same if your cihld’s straight teacher mentions her boyfriend that she lives with? Just curious…
This world would be mighty boring if we all felt the same.
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“It just means, can’t I choose who I expose my children to? Isn’t that my right and responsibility as a parent?”
No. Texan Mommy, I think the answer to your question is no.
While it may be your right, it’s not helpful to your kids.
Your belief system is different from mine. Both of us would like our belief systems to be shared by our children. Check. But I think that sheltering our children from other possible belief systems will only backfire. To me, this attitude is akin to having a pool in your backyard and locking your kids inside to protect them instead of teaching them how to swim.
Our children will go into the world. All of it, as it is. My kids will meet conservative christians not anywhere nearly as nice as you. Your kids will meet people taking part in a gay pride parade, wearing leather shorts. And both our kids will need to deal with whatever they encounter.
To that end, I think hiding your living-with-girlfriend relative’s apartment from them does not help. Visiting him there, having them see this living arrangement and then discussing it would probably be better. Hiding their teacher’s sexuality (gay or straight) does not help. Discussing sexuality with them, and your views on it, may be better.
You seem to assume that these alternate lifestyles will “steal them away” or hurt them as “bad role models”. But your children probably love your family, love you, are happy with their current situation and, if so, are likely to agree with your viewpoints. In fact, after seeing alternatives and listening to your explanations of your choices, they may hold these viewpoints even stronger, because now they developed them by thinking through things themselves. On another hand, if one of your children turns out gay, or not a conservative Christian, that child will benefit from seeing that he or she is not alone in the world, and from seeing that Mom is kind enough to embrace the presence of other views, not just tolerate them from a distance. Whatever belief system we hold, it must be strong enough to explain and stand up to all of the real world, not just a part of it we choose to show.
I hope that when my kids are old enough to start asking such questions, I will answer honestly. If they want to go to a conservative church, I will take them, even though hate the experience I may. I plan to never let the kids know who I vote for, and if they want to see a Republican rally, I will go. I will explain why I make the choices I make.
But my kids are their own people, and must choose for themselves. They have to find their own good answer. My job is not to “choose who to expose them to”. My job is to expose them to everything and guide them along the way. My job is to teach them to tell facts apart from opinions and to forms opinions of their own, not to blindly adopt mine.
I think this will make our kids much more likely to open up to us when they are teen-age, and do something they know we disapprove of. If they think we can be open-minded and do not try to shelter ourselves or them from what’s out there, they will probably be more open with us and, hopefully, more resilient. That’s my hope.
I found your original post, aside from its details that have other commenters worked up, to be valid: every parent wishes that our kids are somewhat like us. That we can relate to them when they are adult. That they choose what (and who) we like. And everyone is irked when our kids are exposed to something we would rather have them not see. But, like it or not, the world is real and our children have to live in it. We have to prepare them for what is out there and then let them go. I think the best way to do that is to let them learn as much as they can and explain to them why we believe what we do. If we discover in that process that to support our beliefs we have to hide a part of the world from them, may be our beliefs should get a stronger leg to stand on.
All the best to you and your family. I must say that of all religious conservatives that I’ve had a chance to speak with, you sound the most pleasant.
(It took me 2 hours to type with a fussy, teething baby in my arms and then when I finally hit “submit” it never appeared. So, with THAT being my underlying frustration I hope this comes out as eloquent as the first time.)
I really wanted to point out that I am a 5th grade teacher and as part of the curriculum we teach citizenship. Under that is character, respect and tolerance (to name a few). I teach my students tolerance of people on this earth, which includes someone who is gay. We have a lengthy conversation about homosexuality, actually, because this is the year they really start experimenting with hurtful names and bullying. They learn to stick up for people and all they have to say is, “It’s not kind to make someone feel badly.”
If you were to ask any elementary school student about gay marriage the response would be simple. “Someone isn’t allowed to do something that someone else is? That’s not fair.” Children see people, not choices they make. And that is awesome.
I am not gay. I am a heterosexual-married- with 1 baby- woman. So, see, you don’t have to worry about the lesbian teachers exposing your child to these beliefs, it’s all teachers. Because the world is becoming a more tolerant place. People are opening their hearts past an interpretation of written word.
I don’t imagine that my comment will open your mind to equality, but I do want you to be aware that the lesbian teacher is probably even less likely to teach anything related to homosexuality for the fear of misconstrued backlash. It’s the teacher that has an amazing reputation as a role model for your child that you should watch out for. We are the ones that have that reputation for a reason. We are kind and tolerant and will teach that until we are kicked out for it. And then we’ll call our Union representative.
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Katie –
I hope that my daughter has many teachers like you.
xoxox
PsychMamma recently posted..Love Coffee French Press Reviews
Any chance we can clone you and give every kid a chance to learn from you? :)
William G. Hartwell recently posted..Of Dreams- Divine Guidance- and Shoes
Gretchen –
Wouldn’t you be horrified if other parent’s asked for their kids not to be friends with your children based on “your belief system” that they bring to school with them?
I don’t quite how as a mother, where you spend your entire life hoping your children have self-confidence, a sense of self pride, and the cajones to be who they are…..you wouldn’t allow that same for other people.
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I apparently can’t type today.
“I don’t quite understand how as a mother, where you spend your entire life hoping your children have self-confidence, a sense of self pride, and the cajones to be who they are…..you wouldn’t allow that same freedom for other people.”
is what I meant….
Adryon recently posted..Sick Kids Suck
This post and the entire thread saddens me.
Gay is okay. The same as being Muslim, or Christian, or black or disabled or white or rich or poor or anything else that is different from you.
This shouldn’t even be an issue. And it depresses me that for Gretchen, and obviously a lot of others, it is.
Gay is okay. I shouldn’t even have to write that.
Redneck Mommy recently posted..The Steel-Toed Boots of Motherhood
As a preface to what I am going to say… I was raised Catholic. I left the Catholic church shortly after my youngest children were born. Although I could write for pages about why, what it really boils down to is that those weren’t *my* beliefs. They were the beliefs my parents taught to me that I never personalized because I never made the choice to believe them myself. Because I was never shown alternatives. My children sometimes go to church with my mother, they attend a Catholic preschool because it is by far the best available in my area. We read the Bible one night a week, and when we do, we talk about the origins of religions–of Judaism and Islam, as well as Christianity. We talk about Hindu polytheism. We discuss Buddhism.
What bothers me in this post, as a teacher, is that not once did you consider this person as a TEACHER. Her lifestyle and her religious beliefs are irrelevant to what her job is…to educate your child. What does she believe about that? Certainly her sexuality is not part of the 4th grade science curriculum, which I’m sure she knows. But you never ask, to what extent has she mastered teaching the 4th grade science curriculum. The bottom line isn’t what she…or you…believe is moral or ethical. It’s whether or not she is doing her job of educating your child. If she hasn’t brought her personal choices into it, I can’t understand why you are.
I know what I believe. As far as my children? That’s not for me to decide. They are very smart, very capable boys. And my only hope is that someday, they will take what they have learned through the years and make educated choices of their own. Nothing could possibly make me prouder of them.
The best way to make a child learn something is to give them ownership of the knowledge. Any teacher or parent can tell you that simply telling a child something, doesn’t make that knowledge theirs. That’s why I teach my sons the way I do. I can only be their guide–that’s all any teacher is, and ultimately, that’s what we as parents are, too.
I wonder what your son is learning through your objections. What lesson is he internalizing? That’s what worries me.
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And I would just like to add….My FAVORITE teacher in school was a gay man. he was the most amazing teacher and was my biggest asset in maneuvering through the trials and tribulations (and bitches) in high school. We kept in touch for YEARS after graduation and he continued to advise me on life. He was a GOOD MAN and a GOOD TEACHER – gay or straight. If my parents had advocated what you appear to be advocating, I would have missed out on a fabulous English teacher who enriched my love of books and learning like no other teacher. It’s the person, not the sexuality.
My daughter is mentally impaired – would you choose to not allow your children to play with her because she’s “different”?
See, I can’t ever accept that discrimination – and that’s what you’re doing, no matter how rosily you want to paint it – is “beautiful” and “unique” and a good fit for any family, or any children.
You say:
“I feel that it’s reasonable to expect my child’s teacher to keep her personal life and professional life separate. The situation just gets a little sticky when Mrs. Jones, the history teacher, can say that she went to the museum of natural history with her husband, but Ms. Taylor has to use the term “friend” instead of referring to her partner as “wife” or “partner”. Is this fair? Maybe not. And I’m not a legal expert so I can’t say where the line is, where a teacher’s personal rights supercede the appropriateness of classroom verbiage.”
Well, honey, didn’t you just answer your own question? It’s not fair, it’s ridiculous in fact.
You aren’t concerned that having heterosexual teachers is going to take the focus of the classroom away from education; so why would it be a big deal for an “open” (what does that even MEAN?! Why do we need to distinguish here? would it be Ok if she were “closed”) lesbian to be the teacher?
Is this teacher starting long conversations about gay rights?
Is this teacher asking the kids to touch each other inappropriately?
Is this teacher preaching about her own personal values to the students?
If she’s not, then (pardon the phrasing) who the fuck cares?
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1st time poster here: Thanks for your commentary and for asking the question. Gay is okay with me. Jesus would love gay people, straight people, purple people or what have you. That is what I will teach my kiddos and whether they turn out gay or straight, that’ll be okay with me also. I have only asked that they don’t ever vote Republican, lol. That would hurt me. Luckily, with the secret ballot, I never need to know.
Gretchen, I appreciate your honesty and I commend you for posting your views on this blog…You are a very BRAVE soul! ;) BUT ……
If you believe cable TV is riddled with inappropriate programs, Why would you allow your children to watch it in someone else’s home? I don’t allow my children to drink soda(16 & 13). Never have. So that doesn’t mean they can drink it in someone else’s home just because they do.
Being a Christian you know that you should keep your eyes on God and not man, right? I don’t have a problem with my children having someone they “look up” to or have “admiration” for but I do have a problem with “Role Model”. No one should be put on that pedestal because no one is perfect and mistakes are made, even by parents. Thats how lessons are learned. I instill everyday how I expect my children to behave and as their walking out the door to school I remind them to be a leader not a follower and I have also taught my children that just because we have different beliefs, values and morals doesn’t make us any better.
Surrounding them with people who are ‘like-minded’ isn’t teaching them to be open-minded nor is it teaching them how to form their own opinion about something.
The 4th grade lesbian teacher, and you know this how? Did your 4th grader come home and say the teacher announced this to the class and is now asking “Whats a lesbian?” If THIS is the case, it was wrong on the teachers part and yes, personal life and classroom should be kept seperate. But if its just your assumption then I can’t help but think its your FEAR that your child is going to be exposed to someone who isn’t ‘like-minded’ and projecting YOUR fears onto your children isn’t healthy.
When did “friend” “wife” and “partner” become words used in sticky situations? I have a good friend who is lesbian and last year my son overheard another friend make a comment to her about being lesbian. My son turns to me and asked why didn’t I ever tell him. My response to him was I never told you because its what she is not WHO she is and your 15 its none of your business plus what she does in her own home is no ones business. I later asked him if it changed how he felt about her, he said No because he knows she’s a good person with a good heart and that I would never allow just anyone in his life, she’s family.
If you want control over when your children are exposed to things in the world then I would highly suggest you home school them and never let them out of your sight. Wanting your children to be surrounded by adults who are ‘like-minded’ doesn’t mean they practice your Family’s value and morals because everyone is different behind closed doors and No One ever really knows anyone that well.
Sorry to say this but I would put money on your children only watching tv when they visit friends who have cable because when you don’t allow a child to have something in his own home, even in moderation thats all they want in someone elses.
Putting aside the issues of gay rights and discrimination for a moment, the first thing that caught my attention was this: “As I raise my children, I want to surround them with people who are like-minded with us.” Why on earth would you want to limit your child’s life experience like that? As a father myself, I want my son (currently 3 years old) to be exposed to many different experiences as possible, just the same way I was. Because in the end, there isn’t a think you can do to limit what your child will experience in life. The more force and fight put into it, the more apt they are to seek out other ideals and opinions that are contrary to yours. Myself as an example, my father is a minister and my mother is devout Irish Catholic. Do I follow their belief structure? Not quite. I’ve done my own thing, blazed my own trail (as people should) and found a life that I’m comfortable with. Which makes them just as happy as I am.
I agree with you completely. I want my children to experience as much as life has to offer.
Vikki recently posted..A Guide to Apple Picking
Agreed, completely. The thought of my children only being surrounded by people like me is mildly horrifying.
I agree, I look at every person we come in contact with as an opportunity to hopefully be able to teach my children about something that they may not have known about before
Marsha recently posted..Westboro Baptist Church can kiss my…
I really didn’t know what to write here. It’s hard because in a small way it is kind of personal.
Shortly after attempting suicide and getting help for an underlying depression a VERY close family member came out to me and most of the family. Do I think it was a coincidence? I do. I think he held who he was in to the point where he didn’t know what to do.
After he came out he began talking and laughing and smiling and hugging. Was that a coincidence? Yes. He finally could let his guard down and enjoy life. I thank God everyday he is alive.
Do I think being gay is a choice? Hells NO! I don’t wish the pain my family member felt on anyone- I don’t think he choose to feel all that pain. The pain was given to him by a close minded society.
As for your question, once a child reaches a certain age they will pick their own role models. You can’t force that kind of thing on people. Sure you can guide but once they reach the age of reason they will form their own path.
You are judging what could be a positive experience in your child’s life into something wrong and bad. You don’t think your children pick those feelings up???
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If your child’s teachers were all just like you, there would be no reason for your child to attend school. School is a place to learn about the world, not just to learn about facts. It’s a place to learn about different people and how to negotiate life with different personalities, practices, and belief systems that are encountered in everyday life so that one can be successful and autonomous and get along with others. Diversity is important in order to teach that. School is not about morality, it’s about acquiring information. I’m sure there is plenty in a history book that you don’t agree with morally, but does that mean that information should be hidden from your children?
In any case, it really doesn’t matter whether someone else’s sexuality is okay with you. Your feelings on the matter won’t change them.
Ewokmama recently posted..Growing Pains
Yowza, I checked in when there were only 15 comments this a.m. I can’t possibly read them all now without sending my children off to boarding school for the next 12 years. All I know is this, I had a 6th grade male teacher who was gay. How do I know? Because years later, when I understood the basis of sexuality and attraction, my mother told me. I had no clue when I was in his class because he never disclosed it. Nor did my straight 4th grade teacher ever talk about her boyfriend or dating. There is a discussion that should be had by parents, and by society, about how to make all humans feel welcome and healthy and accepted. It’s not the job of the teacher, however. The same way I don’t want my kid being taught Creationism or anything Rush Limbaugh espouses. If your kid’s teacher is a good one she’s figured out how to keep her curriculum in the classroom and her private life at home. I would expect the same of a straight teacher too.
I don’t normally comment on controversial posts but I felt compelled to on this one, not to pile on with the fact that I think Gay is OK but to point out what I find to be the single biggest issue that I have with it (and the idea that we need to somehow “protect” our children from knowing that people they know are gay). It’s this line:
“As I raise my children, I want to surround them with people who are like-minded with us.”
Obviously you can raise your children any way you deem fit. But this? Is absolutely 100%-ly NOT how I want to raise my children. Because frankly, if my parents had raised me with that mentality my children would never have been born. See, my family is FULL of people who aren’t “like-minded.” We’ve got Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews, agnostics, atheists and more. We’ve got Asians, Blacks, Whites and Middle Easterners. We’ve got people who are married, divorced, single, parents, non-parents, single-parents. We’ve got college graduates, JC graduates, MDs, PhDs, masters degree holders, high school graduates. The list goes on and on.
Perhaps it is because of this that I encourage my children to get to learn about people who are not “like-minded.” I do not fear people who are different than I am and I never want to plant that fear into my children – at any age.
James says “you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. ” John says “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. ”
I hope my kids’ beliefs are challenged. I hope their love for their brothers and sisters is tested. And I trust that the lessons I teach them by exposing them to people that are not “like-minded” will ensure that they become loving, caring people capable of great compassion, understanding and charity.
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I had at least three gay teachers before I reached sixth grade.
My first grade teacher was wonderful, but the rumor mill in our small school drove her out of town. As in, quit or we will fire you.
My second grade teacher was a horrible person, hated children and basically abused me the entire year. It had nothing to do with her sexuality. She was a miserable old woman that hated my guts (at 7, for Christ’s sake, WTF?). I missed so many days of school I barely passed.
My fifth grade teacher was the best teacher I have ever had. He taught me more than any other teacher, he cared more about his job, his students, his contribution than any other teacher I have ever known. He was dedicated and I think of him all the time.
The PTA got the idea that he was having an affair with the art teacher (another male) and attempted to drive him out of his job as well. Luckily, my father was the President of the PTA at the time and had the courage and morals to stand up to the small-minded people that are willing to throw away someone with a real gift due to one small aspect of their PRIVATE LIVES.
You may not think that you are a bigot. You may think that you are doing what is right for you and your children. By only allowing them to experience like-minded people, keeping them from interacting with different people, you are doing what I guess you ultimately are setting out to do, create more small-minded bigots just like yourself.
Bigotry is taught and you are doing a great job.
To Madge:
you have no credability; you practice zero tolerance for those who don’t share your beliefs and, Madge, you PROMISED us you would not be reading Scary Mommy anymore. What’s up Madge?
and now we all know that Madge doesn’t keep her promises .. tsk tsk tsk .. broken promises Madge are worse then giving away a dog.
Gretchen, I get what you are saying, she’s not a bad person, you just don’t want your kids exposed to her lifestyle…which is your right.
I guess I just take a different viewpoint in that I feel like the more diversity my kids see the more tolerant they will be as young adults. I personally explained things to my son when he was in 5th grade the minute he started asking questions about one of my gay friends. I want him to be open to all people, not just people who fit our family mold.
Again, your kids, your right to make decisions, my views are just vastly different.
The Stiletto Mom recently posted..Friday Fashion File…The Jacket Edition
Your post does a beautiful job of making your prejudice seem reasonable. As a lesbian and a mother, I find this type of argument to be the most dangerous. Most decent people look at those who spew anger and hate and dismiss them easily. It’s harder for people to look at words like yours and see it for what it is – bigotry.
Vikki recently posted..A Guide to Apple Picking
Exactly, Vikki nailed it. Incidious bigotry may be the worst kind.
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I try to be open with my children. If one of my children asks something about being gay or lesbian, I give an age-appropriate answer. I don’t want my children to experience what I did. I was 14. Someone used the term “gay” and I was totally and utterly clueless as to what the term meant. The word was used by a friend to describe a kid at my school. It was one of the few incidents of bullying at my school. I had to go to the school library to look up the word in the dictionary…the predigital age.
I attended a very strict all girls, Catholic convent school in England. There’s very little I can praise the nuns for — it was an austere, cold school. I can give the nuns credit for one thing — the nuns treated EVERYONE the same. Rich. Poor. Brainy. Slow learner. New to the school. Fifth child in the family attending the school. It didn’t matter…the nuns treated everyone in the same cold, unequivocal way. I believe that it taught the kids in my school to accept people for who they were. There were girls in my school who were destined for Oxford or Cambridge, as well as girls who are probably still manning the cash register at a supermarket.
We learned tolerance. We banded together against the nuns. I still recall a prank where we loaded a rolling chalkboard with about a hundred pieces of chalk. As the nun lifted the rolling board up all the pieces of chalk fell like gunfire.
Fourth graders should know about different lifestyles…different religions…different races…different anything. I worry when I see families who shield their children. These kids are the ones who might just go over the edge in college when presented with freedoms they were not exposed to at home.
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In the spirit of full disclosure, I’m Mormon.
That being said, I think most people who’ve commented here have it right, that even the fact that Gretchen questions whether or not this teacher can be a good role model for her child says that she isn’t being completely honest with herself about how she feels about gay people. Her sexuality should have absolutely nothing to do with her ability to be a role model for children, and frankly is none of anyone’s business, unless she’s actually talking about it work, which i find to be highly unlikely.
However, I do think that it’s admirable that Gretchen is so concerned about her children and wants to teach them well. Just because I don’t agree with the way she’s teaching them doesn’t make her any less of a mother.
Lastly, Gretchen, I have to agree with a lot of other people who said that sheltering your children from exposure to the outside world is doing more damage than good. Meeting and interacting with gay people isn’t going to “turn” your kids gay. Not meeting and interacting with gay people, though, might turn them into closeted homophobes. It’s a lot easier to be scared of the unknown than the familiar.
Alexis recently posted..gay marriage
Alexis – I don’t agree with this that her children would become closeted homophobes! I grew up in VERY rural IA, NO exposure to anyone else except farmers and their families in my area! (REALLY) While I would never live in a rural area again in my lifetime – I take one wonderful aspect of my childhood – one thing that I LOVE AND ADORE about myself today . . . I was not exposed to any other cultures, any other religions (everyone went to the same church), any other anything . . . I have NO – ZERO – prejudices about anything! i just simply do not. Neither do my brothers. We are not homophobes and believe me, I did not know what a “gay” person was well into high school, if even then! (Seriously) I did not meet and interact with gay people, or black people, or Muslim people or Asian people or anyone . . . I am the least bigoted/prejudice person you will ever meet in your life! I couldn’t disagree with you more on this one!
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Hey Theresa. :)
I totally know what you’re saying. But deliberately sheltering your children and in fact teaching them that you are deliberately sheltering them has great potential to create homophobia. And I also know that there’s a chance that it won’t adversely affect them at all. That’s why I was careful to use the word “might.” I’ve seen this happen SO SO SO much in my life…it could have been me, come to think of it. But thankfully it’s not me, and I will never purposely shield my children from something because it’s difficult to talk about or because I don’t agree with it. The only thing I’m going to shelter my children from is something that might be dangerous to them.
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hey girlie – i do see both sides as well – i just think if a parent shelters their child in a loving, positive environment . . . everything will be okay!
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Here’s a thought: if it matters that much to you (and I do not have time to read the comments thoroughly to see if you’ve addressed this before) that you raise your children exactly as you want them to be, you should enroll them immediately in a Christian school that shares your beliefs. Or homeschool them.
The rest of the world doesn’t see things like being gay as a bad thing and I, for one, would love for my children to be exposed to people in all different walks of life.
But that’s me, and this is you.
You can’t open Pandora’s Box and not expect that people won’t be hurt. You’re kinda pissing on a lot of people and their way of life, no matter how much you’re trying not to. You’re certainly entitled to your own beliefs. We’re entitled to ours, too.
I’m super late to the game, and I don’t have kids, but I wanted to share my thoughts.
How can you compare your child being taught by an atheist/faithful person to a homosexual person. Who are you to imply that just because she’s a lesbian that she isn’t a Christian?
Wow. That is all I can say. Wow. Jill, thank you for opening this forum and letting Gretchen say what she has to say and to everyone who felt so strongly to post comments.
Now I will keep my children away from all you christians because we are jewish and some of you think we have horns….I am kidding, really I am.
I was in college in the early ’80′s when AIDS was the homosexual killer and my brother came out. I asked him then if he chose to be gay and he said he was born this way and I believe that it is genetic or predisposed to be gay/lesbian. My brother, my nephew and in talking to relatives we put two and two together we have always had, in each generation, someone who was “different”. In the early 1900′s that is what my great grandparents would have said..”your cousin is different”.
I embrace the differences in everyone and my family tries to instill it in the next generation. We all are born, we all live a life, we all die. The basics are all there. We are human beings.
This was a really interesting post. I’m just not sure how the teacher being gay would affect her efficacy. I believe it’s good for children to experience other cultures and different kinds of people from varied backgrounds.
In the classroom, the teacher’s concern should be on the children not on her personal life (which I think being gay falls under). I substitute teach, and I don’t discuss my personal life with the children.
The point is is she a good teacher? Does she understand the kids? Do they learn from her? If so, then all is well.
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I find it funny {in a my-head-is-about-to-explode way} that people who are so keen profess their intolerance of homosexuality because it’s a “sin” are the same people, for the most part, who choose to ignore things like “judge not lest ye be judged” and “do unto others as you would have done unto you”. At what point does does having “moral and ethical values” mean condoning even thinly veiled hate -and lets just call it that because what other word applies, really-. Breaking a marriage vow is a sin, is it not? So then is it a problem for you to have your child taught by a divorced teacher? I’m fat.. with gluttony being one of the seven BIG ones (as in deadly sins) then I’m not fit to teach either because I might talk about that super yummy chocolate croissant Jill and I had for brunch last week. {of course since it’s brunch we’d have our gays with us}
Being a parent is HARD WORK folks and we all know that. Trying to teach our kids all they need to know is a rough job. Shouldn’t it start with a foundation of tolerance, of basic humanity?
That said I applaud open discussion. Without that, change is never likely to come.
I totally agree with this–even though I come from a very conservative Christian family who most likely would agree with the post’s author about homosexual teachers being a bad influence, I’m with you. Unless she’s also willing to keep her children away from teachers who’ve had premarital sex, or who like to use the name of the Lord in vain, and so on, I don’t see how she can care SO MUCH about this ONE teacher just because she’s gay.
Alexis recently posted..gay marriage
I’m posting a link to a story about what happens when we teach children that gay people are “less than.” By no means am I saying, Gretchen, that your children will seek out gay people to beat up. But when you make the case for discrimination, you also need to be willing to take responsibility for the social repercussions.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/seven-arrested-in-bronx-in-anti-gay-attacks/?hp
Hi. I came here from Marinka’s blog, so I’d like to apologize in advance if I come off as sounding rude or sarcastic. Blame Marinka.
I am not Christian, but I dated one many years ago. And he pointed out that there’s nothing in the Gospels about queers, but plenty about love and passing judgment on all that God created. (hint: it’s not good news for queer-haters, uh, I mean, queer-not-liking-them-around-my-children-types.)
I mean, look, while I appreciate the effort of everyone here “respecting” all views, I think there is a certain amount of self-deception going on. Sure, I totally get it why you think what I do in the bedroom is disgusting. We gays feel that same way about what you heterosexuals do. (and yes, I speak for all gays)
But who blogged about this to begin with? Not the dyke. She’s just trying to get your kid to learn the periodic table. It’s you, Texas Moma. And just like the roommate of Rutgers freshman Tyler Clementi – pretending to be friendly, then posting about someone else’s sex life – you now seem to be looking for absolution.
Now this is where being a Catholic Christian woulda come in handy – you just go to confession, ask forgiveness – then you go off feeling better and the priest goes off feeling an altar boy.
Which IS what you’re all really talking about, no matter how fancy you dress it up. You think queers are perverts, despite your protestations.
Everything you wrote supports that view. Why else don’t you want the queers around your kids? You couldn’t possibly think there is even one case in human history where a boy looked at his gay science teacher and thought, Hmm, when I grow up, I think I’ll force my penis to get hard when I look at another man, even though it disgusts me.
I mean, really.
But what is really bothersome is that all the “defenses” you put forth in your post are sadly reminiscent of the protests against having black teachers in white schools: you don’t object to them, you just don’t want them around your kids.
And I think many of the readers of this blog who are expressing outrage somehow sense that. I’m just older and gayer, so I can say it more easily.
The Good News is that you are questioning your hate and ignorance. To me that indicates that you do have love of God in your heart. That you’re seeing that some of your spiritual leaders might not have it right. That some people who say they want to fill your soul are more interested in filling their wallets. And that disparaging gays is not What Jesus Would Do. And for that I applaud you.
Thank you for this comment. Marinka sends good people.
I love this respsonse. LOVE it!
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Peajaye-
You frickin’ rock! Thank you for that. You put it so much better than any of us could!
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How can I be like you when I grow up?
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“Not the dyke. She’s just trying to get your kid to learn the periodic table. ”
xoxoxo
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I wish you weren’t gay – I’d civil-service union with you.
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What can I say- you totally nailed it.
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Well, that was an utter failure of a reply.
What I was trying to say was, I applaud your post.
William G. Hartwell recently posted..Of Dreams- Divine Guidance- and Shoes
I think it was very brave of Texan Mama to post her honest opinions on such a touchy subject. I also think it was great of Scary Mommy to host these opinions even though she has different ones.
Here’s my thought: I don’t care if my kids’ teacher is green, white, gay, straight or three legged. I would lose my shit though if their teachers pushed their views on my children. I wouldn’t want religion or personal sexual views discussed with my children. I also wouldn’t want a teacher to stuff their political views down my kids throat. Same goes for being vegan, my 13 year old came home from school a vegan b/c her favorite teacher is one. Will she remain one forever? I doubt it, but for now she is and the rest of us eat meat. It’s not a big deal, but it’s an example.
My point is teachers should stick to teaching and leave their personal lives and opinions at home, at least in a public school system.
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Call it what you want. You are brung homophobic. Would u say the same thing if the teacher were black or Jewish? Would youthink that is acceptable?
If the teacher us bring unprofessional then report it. Otherwise have an open mind and heart. Or home school your kids.
@Texan Momma, in reply to many comments you have written that commenters are assuming that you can’t disagree with the teacher’s “choice” and show her love and compassion. That is not the assumption I see. Rather, I think people (including myself) are assuming that you can’t conceive of sexuality as a choice and treat people who make a choice you disagree with in an unbiased, unstereotyping, unprejudiced manner. As many commenters have noted, your post only states that this teacher is gay and nothing else about her as a teacher. And yet, you are seriously concerned that she may negatively influence your children in some way. Thus, the fact that she is gay (which you know through, I assume, gossip) makes you immediately fearful that she has poor judgment and different morals or values than you. That is prejudice. There is no other word for it.
We are all prejudiced in one way or the other. But, it is our job as good humans, as moral people, to fight our own prejudice and treat other people as equals. In some ways, I feel that is what your blog post is about. But, instead of your writing about how you know your stereotype is wrong, you try to legitimize it by saying that you love her, but hate her choice. People who are different than you don’t care if you love them, rather they care that you will treat them with fairness and respect. Which means treating them as you would someone JUST like you.
Having written all that, I respect your willingess to put yourself out there. You must have known that hailstorm this post would brew up, and you posted it anyway. You have the courage of your convictions and are willing to air them in places where people may not be like-minded.
I completely and fundamentally disagree with several of Gretchen’s “beliefs,” which I’m glad she acknowledges are beliefs.
First of all, the idea that knowing that there are homosexuals in the world is “not part of the 4th grade curriculum” is patently incorrect. There ARE gay people in the world — whether you agree with them or deny the science that demonstrates it is NOT a choice — and it IS healthy for your child to know that this is true. This is whether you like it or not. I’m not saying she should be discussing anything in a non-age-appropriate-way, but should she be able to tell the kids that she loves and lives with a woman, or has married and has a child with a woman? Absolutely your child should know that this is part of the world, again, whether or not you disagree with it. Why any parent would to hide this segment of reality from their child makes zero sense and I do not see that explained. I hear that she says she doesn’t fear or hate homosexuals, so why would her child knowing that be wrong? The only excuse is that she would like her child to grow up insulated from this TRUE FACT (there are gay people in the world) — the likely effect is that the child will grow up to hate/fear gay people.
Secondly, the idea that education should further your goal of surrounding your family with people who are “like-minded.” Excuse me? What is education for if not expanding your world? Do you want your kids to not learn about China because many of the people are pagans and you share nothing with them except possibly choice of Nike sneakers? You do have a right to close your home to your children — to tell them when they get home that you disagree with something they learned in school — but you do not have the right to expect that education will keep them closed or maintain the doors that you like. I am pretty sure that if you did, each child would be in a separate school.
I disagree with most of the commenters because unlike them, I don’t give Gretchen credit for sharing anything interesting. There isn’t a single fact in her argument, all she is giving us is her beliefs, which are prejudiced. If she said she had a right to protect her kids from black people, or from people who choose to wear expensive shoes, you’d all be in an uproar.
Different opinions are okay; prejudice without any justification is NOT.
I don’t hold it against Jill, because I doubt you allowed “right of review” when permitting a guest poster — and I’m all in favor of opposing points of view — but Gretchen’s argument doesn’t hold together as anything more than a collection of her excuses for a prejudice that she herself has not thought through.
Do you have a right to explain your POV on someone else’s choices to your kid, even if they are unscientific? Yes. Do you have a right to expect people whose very existence you deny to remove themselves from public life? No. Is it in your child’s best interest — and your own, as someone who would like to understand why they DON’T want homosexuals in the public arena — to know what exists out there? Absolutely yes. You should have a BETTER argument for your kid if he is NOT sheltered from this.
So get ready to put some logic together as your kid grows. After all, this is education. For both of you.
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Perfectly Put.
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I’ve been reading/following this blog and comments all day, and I have a couple of comments.
1. VERY reaffirming to know that most of the responses were respectful and above all, supportive of the gay community! Thank you, America! I’m starting to feel a little better!
2. My 10 yr old has been at the same elementary school for 7 yrs (pre-k – 5th) and in those 7 years, we have one teacher who has had four different last names and is vocal about her particular Christian denomination. I believe that one of the last names in rotation is her maiden name, the others are all different marriages. Sorry, I would happily take the excellent teacher who just happens to be a lesbian any day of the week.
Ha! Good point!
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I think it’s great that you had the courage to own how you feel on the issue, I don’t understand how a person being openly gay is going to influence kids in any way other than to perhaps be more accepting.
One can’t model gay behavior and thereby queer-i-fy a student. Perhaps, at “worst” they can make a student who is gay feel less like they need to suppress their own orientation, but how is that bad? I applaud diversity in education, and I say this as a parent who does not share the same sexual orientation as all of her daughter’s teachers, and also does not share the same religion as many of them. I would, perhaps, be concerned if my child was being taught by someone who was clearly closeted and suffering for it or someone who was openly causing pain to those who love them by flagrantly cheating, but it still wouldn’t be any of my business.
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I understand wanting to provide children with role models who promote our beliefs and values. I also understand that it is impossible for any of us to share the all the same ones all the time. The value in having a teacher who may be different, who has different values is, more than anything, an opportunity for what everyone these days likes to refer to as a “teachable moment.” Here you have a chance to show your children what it means to respect another human being you disagree with. It’s an opportunity for your kids to know that we will spend our entire lifetime with people we have conflicts with, people who we may disagree with or even dislike, but we can’t just wish them away or tell them to come back when it is more convenient. We find a way to co-exist and move on. It seems like you are able to do that for yourself – you don’t hate gay people, but yeah you dislike what you may perceive as a choice or a lifestyle you disagree with – you’re not terrorizing gay people outwardly with emotional or physical violence. Totally fair. Absolutely. Good for you for not being a hateful bigot because the world needs fewer of those and more people like you – those who are at least moderately tolerant. I disagree with you, with your opinion (and I certainly do not believe moderate tolerance is enough – but I’ll take it over what’s worse and admit I have tolerance issues of my own so I’m no better or worse than you) – but you have every right to it and I don’t hate you for it. I believe in your right to share it openly and with pride. I also believe that teacher has the same right – to be who she is openly and with pride.
You don’t seem to have any evidence that she discusses her sexuality with kids in her class but you assume she may do it at some point and use it as an opportunity to teach the kids that homosexuality is appropriate – a teaching that goes against your beliefs. No respectable teacher would do that – just decide one day they’re going to teach these little kids about what it does or doesn’t mean to be gay, just like any respectable teacher who was straight wouldn’t do that either. It would be inappropriate in any situation unless it was part of the curriculum or it came up in an organic conversation (and even then, teachers are probably adequately aware of how to engage in a discussion that respects the parents differences of opinion. I don’t know this teacher at all so I can’t say she’ would do one thing or another – but neither do you. I guess that’s my point.). I do believe that thinking because she’s gay that she’d do this is an unfortunate product of your bias. Despite the occasional stereotypes you may see on television – gay people are, in fact, just like you. We have values and morals, spiritual and philosophical beliefs, we value family and friends, community and knowledge, the desire and ability to feel proud of who we are as human beings, we want to be an asset to our community and we certainly want to be accepted by society, to fit in.
Finally, I think that surrounding ourselves only with people who are like-minded limits our capacity for growth mentally, emotionally and spiritually. How can we learn anything from people who only know the same things we do? I think we do ourselves a disservice by not engaging with those who are different or have contrary beliefs. To think they bring no value to our lives because if that is an unfortunate way to go about this existence – because I have found the most beautiful things in people with whom I disagree the most.
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Anti-choicers like the phrase “Its a child not a choice”
Well? It’s not a choice, it’s not a “lifestyle to be EXPOSED to,” it’s a person–someone’s child. Maybe even yours.
i am agnostic and i am raising a 2.5 year old girl. i consider myself to be open-minded and my plan with her is to not push any belief system on her- she’s a smart girl, she will choose for herself.
that being said- if she has a conservative christian teacher at school, will i care? no. it’s irrelevant- religion isn’t taught in public schools. the same goes for a teacher’s sexual orientation- it’s completely irrelevant, unless the school system has implemented mandatory courses on who a teacher is sleeping with and i missed it.
i’m completely dumbfounded as to why, in 2010, this is even an issue.
The best math teacher and the best gym teacher I ever had growing up were both gay. I don’t know who they were in relationships with; didn’t care or even think about it, just like I didn’t think about it with my hetero teachers. Even though I was from an Irish Catholic family who went to Mass every Sunday, I’m pretty sure all my parents cared about was that I was getting a good education–which I did. Both were very kind and compassionate to me after one of my sisters, who they had both had in class, passed away when I was in high school. If that’s not an example of Christianity then I’m not sure what is.
I fully and completely disagree with this post. I’ve tried to respond for hours and I’m going to try to do it now, without being rude. Or yelling. I really want to yell.
As a woman with three children and a lesbian sister-in-law, I want to throw a big ole fit and show you how my sister is no different than you. How her love for her wife (and yes, they are legally married in CA and each plan on having a baby in another year) is no different than your love for your spouse. How being a lesbian is okay. How being gay, is okay. I won’t though. I won’t yell. You didn’t, so I won’t either.
I just don’t see how a great teacher is not okay, because of her sexual preference. I plain don’t understand. Unless she comes in and has sex in front of the kids. Which if that’s true? In an elementary school? Then I guess you have bigger issues at school than I think. But since I doubt that is what is happening, I am going to go with, I just don’t understand.
You can try and protect them all you want, but unless you home-school on an island with no other people, they are going to be around people without your beliefs. If what you believe you are instilling in them, is a strong enough belief, why do you need to shelter them from ever meeting someone whose beliefs are different?
My real question though is this: Why now? Why today? Why this post today, after a boy was bullied and is now dead this week, because he felt he wasn’t okay. Because people told him he wasn’t okay. Over and over and over again, we hear about kids being killed or killing themselves, all because someone didn’t believe being gay was okay. All because they are told there is only one way to love.
I have seen your comments in other places today. I read what you wrote at Marinka’s place. About feeling like people missed the point of this post. I don’t think we did. I believe we do understand. But I do wonder why you decided now was the time for this. Instead of learning to accept that people may be different than you and telling your children that, your post was about not feeling like a gay teacher is okay. Once again, a post on how gay is not okay.
That boy who killed himself this week? He’s the forth in just as many weeks who has been in the press for killing himself, because of being tortured by others, because he was gay. He was not evil. He was not some nasty pervy man, messing around with kids. He was a boy. He was someone’s little boy. One day, it could be your child. Discarded because everyone around him thinks his way of loving is wrong.
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First let me say that I too would be considered a conservative christian were my religiosity an issue here. Second let me also say that I have a 21 year old son, so I can say I have also raised a child in the public school system in direct conflict to what I taught at home.
Having said that, I need to tell you that trying to shelter your children in such a manner will lead to a road of ruin. It fosters intolerance and ignorance not only in your children but of them. If by some act of God, one of your children should find themselves outside of your will for their lives, it will be devestating for them.It will fester as a self hate. With such stringent standards of black and white, they will not be able to function in this world full of different shades of gray. What if one of your children are gay? What if one of them decides that your beliefs and morals are not theirs? What if you are not preparing them for real life in the real world?
Perhaps rather than constantly judging and looking for what seperates us all, the wiser decision is to look for similarities. Open a dialogue within your family about tolerance. Discuss what your family believes and what the world believes. You can teach dogma and morals, but at the end of the day, the decisions each of us make are ours.
What if that openly lesbian teacher is more understanding of your child because she has been judged harshly? What if she is the one who fosters their big dreams? You would have her removed because of who she loves rather than keeping her because she loves your child. That is the definition of bigotry and that is perhaps the biggest injustice you can teach a child. Asking the world to accept you and your views when you do not accept others and their views is what causes most of the pain in this world.
All I know is, I’m ready to join Kyle’s church, whatever it is.
I am having so much trouble with this post. I’ve tried to create a reply to submit about 20 times and couldn’t get it out.
Here’s is it in bare-bones nature:
As a Christian, we are taught to be like Christ. As Christian parents, we are taught to raise our children to be independent missionaries who are able to go out into the world and spread God’s love.
Right? Seriously – if I’m wrong, speak up.
But here’s my problem: how on earth can a Christian parent be so hypocritical? Her homosexuality, even if it is known by the class, isn’t going to “convert” any “straight” kids to become gay. It doesn’t work like that. God places everyone in your life for a reason, and it’s really short-sided to believe that He made a mistake. That’s what this post is saying.
I think that’s what it so frustrating to read. I almost stopped mid-way through because I am disgusted at what we allow and not allow. In the end, PARENTS are the strongest teachers there are – even if your child is in the public school system. It’s not the teacher’s job to raise your children. That’s YOUR job as a parent. It’s YOUR job to dialogue and show your children what is out in the world. I think so often we expect teachers to take the parenting role for us – which is why we crave teachers to have those same belief systems.
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From my two year old:
http://twitpic.com/11wcml
Annnnnnnd … SCENE!!
Adorable!! I believe the shirt says it all ;)
I’m usually more of a lurker than a commenter, but not today.
I applaud ScaryMommy for posting something that she disagrees with. Hearing this opinion in an open forum makes me understand your belief system a little bit more. I think we should all be open to hearing the opinions of others, ESPECIALLY when they differ from our own. How else will we have perspective?
To Gretchen (or Texan Mama)… I’m almost certain that my belief system is the exact opposite of yours, being that I’m agnostic and do support the gay lifestyle and their right to marry. I felt that you were speaking directly to me when you mentioned an atheist with children in the school system and a Christian teacher, as this is a discussion my husband and I recently had. Our daughter is at a public charter school in a fairly conservative, mostly-Christian town in CA. I am the minority as far as religion goes here. Just before my daughter started school, we looked up her new teacher on Facebook and saw all sorts of posts related to “I Love the Lord Jesus Christ” and “I support Sarah Palin,” etc. And my stomach sank. Like you, I was disappointed that her teacher didn’t share our belief system, and in the back of my head I was thinking “she’d better not try to sneak a ‘prayer time’ into the public school,” etc. etc. Of course I didn’t do anything about it, and admit I was overreacting, but I would be lying if I said I wasn’t more watchful after finding out that the teacher is a conservative Christian. I’m sure if I asked my athiest friends if I was irrational, they would say “No, no way!”. And if I asked my conservative Christian friends (I do have some, LOL), they would say I was overreacting, or “sheltering,” just as you feel in your situation. I do feel that religion has no place in the public school system, and that homosexuals should be allowed to teach any student. But I am glad you put your opinion out there in such a respectful manner. Thank you.
Clearly there aren’t that many Jews commenting on this post because it has less than a 1000 comments and it has been up all day. One Jew is usually good for three opinions on their own and will gladly give you one for you to use in case you need it.
Two new comments:
1) When is it time for a group hug and am I disqualified from said hug for being a lesbian trapped in a man’s body.
2) Bullying- Several people have talked about bullying coming as a result of homophobia. Well, I don’t want to derail the conversation- but it is a mistake to focus on homophobia as being the cause of bullying.
It is something that many of us have experienced in one form or another. The reason for it isn’t always as important as cultivating an environment in which our children feel comfortable talking to us about these incidents.
You are never going to wipe it out, but you can go a long way towards making sure that when it happens it doesn’t last long. Sometimes all it takes is a good jab or a Taser to get the message across, but once a bully understands that you won’t have it and others won’t allow it things change quickly.
Jack,
I’ve read all of your comments and seriously you are killing me with awesome.
Can I marry you, dude?
(Oh, wait…you’re probably already married.)
(No worries. I’m from Utah. We’re into that.)
(Ok, I am so kidding.)
(For reals.)
(But you are seriously awesome.)
(AND you laughed, admit it.)
;)
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
Dear Jack, represent!
I myself will be speaking from the other half of the hemisphere, what is commonly known as The Orient.
Absence of Alternatives recently posted..I will stab anyone who says “Boys will always be boys”
First, let me say I stopped reading about halfway down the comments. Whoa! What I saw so far is a lot of great content. No matter which side (or no side) the comments are on, the fact this topic has so many comments is a good thing.
I am gay, and was brought up Pentecostal, and know first-hand how both sides feel about this issue.
It pains me deeply to see the manner in which so many conversations take place on the subject of “gay.” So often it is filled with ignorance, from BOTH sides, and one-sentence emotionally-charged statements that say little and hurt a lot.
There’s an even bigger problem when the people that get heard are those with the most extreme, craziest sounding views. They do not speak for the majority of either side, but each side seems to have an opinion of the other based on the extremists. I have a true respect for anyone who can stand up for what they believe while making an educated, well-thought statement without emotional buzzwords. What I have no respect for is hypocrisy.
My thoughts on the blog post itself? I don’t think there’s anything to worry about. Inappropriate that the kids know the teacher is gay? No more inappropriate than teachers introducing themselves on the first day to say “I’m 34, have a husband, 2 kids, and a dog.” In other words, “I’m straight.” That isn’t different from a female teacher introducing herself as having a wife. That is talking about family, not sexuality, and there is a difference. You don’t hear either teacher saying “…and when in bed with my husband/wife, we…” Dealing with your children having a gay teacher is the same as an agnostic teacher. A Hindu teacher. A science teacher that teaches evolution. Sending your children to public school, as you noted, already means they are exposed to the public, where countless other people with views differing from those you teach at home are displayed, talked about, and shared. What matters is what you teach your children, and that you do so in a manner that allows them to think for themselves. Make sure they know what you believe, but not just that, make sure they know why. Unless your children are under 3, “Because I said so,” “Because the Bible says so,” (as a reason standing alone) or “It’s always been done this way” are not acceptable answers if you want the values you instill to “stick” long-term. When you teach values, teach consequences and reasoning.
Thank you for being honest. I hope you can see I am as well. When the “religious right” as so many like to say learns (as you obviously have) to stop using hate speech to infuriate people and “the gays” stop using slogans instead of real dialogue, we’ll be in a much better place.
I’ll finish with 2 questions. Know that I do not judge anyone; it’s not my place. Offering the chance to see a different perspective though is a good practice (thanks for yours).
1. Growing up, I was told endless times that the Old Testament is the “old covenant” and a “new covenant” was made possible through the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is the explanation given for why we do not sacrifice animals, circumcise all baby boys, etc. Why then do we choose which parts to live by in such a way to cast some people (gay people) out while ignoring parts about diet, clothing, matrimony, among other things? Why do we eat sausage but condemn monogamous homosexual partners to hell? Who is the one that decides which parts of the Bible must be held sacred, and which parts are just easier to ignore?
2. Have you seen the film, “For the Bible Tells Me So?” Know that it is produced and directed from a gay perspective, but contains stories of real people dealing with the struggle of being a gay person while desiring a relationship with God. I think it’s a good watch no matter what your beliefs.
I hope nothing but the best for you and your children. Thank you for being a parent that cares about the well-being of your children, and being responsible enough to ask questions rather than pass immediate judgment without thinking and gaining other perspectives first.
Thank you for this comment- I so appreciate your thoughtfulness.
I heard about that movie. Are you familiar with Trembling Before G-d?
http://www.hulu.com/watch/76545/trembling-before-g-d
This is lovely, just lovely.
Sara Plays House recently posted..Wordless Wednesday
jill, you are so correct that now is the exact time to have these conversations. i applaud you for your openness & standing by holding this as a place for differing opinion. and gretchen, while i wholeheartedly disagree & will always use my vote to support equal rights, it was your voice, your opinion. i sincerely hope your children will stand proud one day knowing they had a momma who cared enough to have an opinion & voice it.
in the name of hilarity, i would like to add that i DO NOT hate straight people. i have LOTS of straight friends, & even some straight family members. i know that someday mandy & i will face the challenge of straight teachers, & i hope that we will instill in our children the love of ALL people, regardless of their differences.
Thank you. They’re not easy conversations to have, but I think the timing is perfect, not insensitive as some people have suggested. These conversations are the only way to move forward. Clearly, not talking about them ain’t working.
Honestly I feel that there is a place and time for everything. I don’t think elementary school is the place or time to talk about your personal life- single, straight whatever.
I don’t see a problem with a teacher being gay- its just a preference and doesn’t make her any less of a qualifed person or a good person for that matter. That is one aspect of who she is and not the kit-n-kaboodle.
BUT- I don’t think any concepts of sexuality should be present in a 4th grade classroom. There are boundaries that need to be kept. I think as an adult any competent teacher will know and understand this. So no, I don’t see any problems with having gay teachers I just feel strongly that adult issues need to be kept with adults. Yes you can treat children with respect and educate and enlighten them, but at the end of the day kids are kids.
I think role models are what you make them. I was brought up in a very conservative religion that is all about setting a “good example” and I was surrounded by hypocrispy at every turn. Religion or religious people don’t always make good role models. Its the way that you live your life, not how you follow your religion that makes the kind of person you are. Even if you had teachers in there that followed the same kinds of values that you kept in your home- they might not be as good of a role model as an atheist. My husband doesnt believe in god (unlike me) and he is the most moral person I know.
And lastly- Kudos to you for writing this blog. I know its really hard to put yourself out there like that on such a taboo topic and to have everyone puts thier two cents in. It was well written and you expressed your thoughts really well. :)
Rach recently posted..Shoulda- Woulda- Coulda
Perhaps you should homeschool. Perhaps you should homeschool. 100% certainty that your children will be raised with your very specific desires at heart.
I feel that, in my probably close political and religious beliefs with you, I am kind of the “flip side” of your coin. My response to differences in my children’s lives? I’m not raising “mini mes.” I’m raising two little individuals who I pray will one day be free thinking individuals who can form their own opinions and beliefs based on the foundation that my husband and I have laid out for them. We are not molding them into who we want them to be. We are making them strong enough to decide WHO THEY ARE and confident enough to STAND UP FOR THAT. I don’t care if they’re gay/straight, marry black/white/mexican/chinese/etc., Christian/Jew/Muslim/Atheist/etc.
This type of behavior sickens me. Actually, it is more harmful to society (In my humble…but slightly educated and very vocal opinion) than extremists who are openly (and usually aggressively) biased in their opinions. This is what I like to call the “God Defense.” I know that sounds a little harsh…but I feel that people with this type of thinking hide behind their beliefs in such a way that they become the very thing that religion…ANY religion…is meant to represent.
Love and acceptance.
God…MY God…is not biased. I don’t use him as a shield for my political, motherly, religious, or any other views. He made ME who I AM. Just as he made everyone else (gays included) who THEY are. Who am I to judge his creation? Who am I to say that they are right or wrong? Who am I to raise the children He blessed me with to be intolerant, judgemental, cynical puppets?
And I seriously doubt if this teacher’s sexual preferences are discussed on a daily basis as you feared…no more than any other 4th grade science teacher is discussing her heterosexual marriage with her students.
And the “divisiveness with parents” that you spoke of? OF COURSE THERE IS! I’m sure you’re at the heart of it…or very near it. Another example of the parents creating the very thing that they claim to be wanting to prevent.
Also, I replied with this link, but would like to give it a comment on its own:
http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/homophobia_it_hurts_straight_people_too#share_source=blog-top_fb
Hey guys … this post was THE most well thought out piece on this I have ever seen. I would love to say this will be short ….. but I will try not to write a book. I was a single mom rasing two kids the best I knew how,around Heathers (My oldest) 15th birthday she had only claimed one boyfriend and started claiming girlfriends and well I comforted myself with “Its a phase” Heather offically came out at the age of 18 and please let me assure you that I didnt take it well at all. I packed her up and sent her to live with the biggest homophob in the know world ‘her father’.Now keep in mind that right before all this I considered myself a very “with it” kinda gal. I had all the respect for people and their choices …. still I cried … I freaked. I constantly searched what had I done wrong. Several times I figured that I was the bad role model being a gaint tomboy myself. Anoughter thought was that I worked to much I wasnt there when she needed me…the divorce, but when I didnt have anoughter tear to shed I realized why I was so upset. It wasnt Heather .. it was the most selfish that I have ever been in my life. I wasnt going to get to help Heather with prom night help pick her dress and a nervous young man at the door. I wasnt going to be able to get teary eye’ed while she stood in front of me in a long white gown …. She was never going to need me to help her with her first pregnancy …. no granchildren …no talks about what marriage was about ….. I think I was mad because it felt as though she has denied me of my rights … the rights that most mothers take for granted … I would never experience. All the dreams that you as a mother just assumed were gone. Now here we are 6 years dowm the road. I realized that my love for my child was bigger than anything else. Nope there wasnt a prom,(She didnt want to be the drama that tainted the other kids prom) No wedding,(She doesnt believe in the institution) no grankids(doesnt want kids) …. but she is happy and in my life and being without her was much worse than anything else… I am southern baptist ( You can role your eyes now) and I have always had my faith. I always will …. but for the mothers that havent had to walk my path …. dont assume that you will be the coolest parent in the world, because until you gear up and walk down that rocky road you just dont know…but I love my daughter with all my heart and I did the best I could raising her. I have come to this conclusion. You raise your kids with the best that you have been taught and the best that you have learned and you pray the rest of the way …its all you can do. Goodbye and Gods love Jill Hilliard
Jill Hilliard recently posted..Please forgive me
May I say holy crap batman!
I commend Scary Mommy for posting this no matter what your views on the subject it takes kahones to step out of your comfort zone and have this guest post.
I also commend Texas mom for writing this and letting your inner thoughts come out no matter the backlash or the mountain of comments either negative or positive.
I have the same kind of feelings as some of the above responses that your personal choices should remain at home and not be pushed in other faces (children or adults).
Overall I thank you both for stepping out of your comfort zones and doing this.
Great post. I believe that every family is different. As far as the lesbian teacher, I think there is a problem with that. Like you, I do not have a problem with gay people, but I also like to limit what my kids are exposed to at a young age. If the teacher had a side job as a playboy bunny or a stripper I would have a problem with that too. It is up to the parents to control who and what kids are exposed to and if you are somebody that has a controversial lifestyle, maybe you should not be teaching young children. These teachers could become high school teachers or college professors and this would not be such an issue.
Michelle Saunderson recently posted..Soccer Weekend
ok, how is it fine that she could be a high school teacher and NOT an elementary school teacher? and being a lesbian is NOT the same as being a stripper or playboy bunny. sheesh.
being a lesbian is not at ALL “controversial” to some of us.
Kind of like saying “next people could marry dogs or children or chairs”.
Ugh.
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
You are making controversial!! It’s not! WOW!
Um, no. No. That is not a solution. Suggesting that criteria such as sexual preference be a factor in a person’s fitness for a job? Is blatant discrimination. There is no way to sugar coat it. By making that suggestion you are opening the door to saying perhaps people living with a significant other can’t have certain jobs, perhaps people of certain religions can’t have certain jobs, perhaps people with different ethnic backgrounds can’t have certain jobs. And we have affirmed over and over again in this country that such a policy is not acceptable.
If you have a problem with your child being around a person who is gay, it is your responsibility to remove your child. It is not the gay person’s responsibility to predict your possible objection and remove him or herself. The problem is yours and yours alone.
Rebekah recently posted..More Funny- NSFWork or Kids
I actually didn’t mind reading what Gretchen had to say…but THIS…. wow. I quoted it on my facebook page because all I could think was…WOW. I could see (definitely not agree with, but see) where Gretchen was going with since the teacher follows a lifestyle that she believes is wrong. But THIS??? If you believe it’s wrong then follow your beliefs across the board, woman! I would actually PREFER that you didn’t want ANY gay teachers rather than coming up with some cockamamy invisible age where a gay teacher can taint a student. Yes. I said cockamamy. And I don’t think I’ve ever used that word in my life until I read your comment.
katiezoeb recently posted..UnExpected- Sleep What’s sleep
I don’t believe homosexuality is a choice or a sin.
But even if you (texas mama) do, why are you so focused on that particular sin (or choice)? Have you checked in on all the sins of all the other people who taught your children? How do you know all of your children’s teachers’ values? So much of our lives are hidden.
And to scary mommy, I honestly don’t know how I feel about this dialogue in the wake of the five suicides. While I’m a huge fan of love and tolerance and I think those core beliefs have allowed my blog to have diverse readers from conservative Christian to atheist when I’m a God-loving liberal doing all the writing, I worry that engaging in this manner is too much is like an endorsement.
It just seems like many commenters hope to change texas mama’s mind whereas she was just trying to make other’s have more of an appreciation for her view. But maybe someone has grown or changed. (to our side right? HIGH FIVE)
Alex@LateEnough recently posted..I Ask- What Can We Do To Help Our Gay Youth
Wow. This is probably the most civilized discussion I have ever seen, so thanks to Scary Mommy and Texan Mama for starting it. Too bad it will never end. :) While I am pretty much on the opposite end of the religious/political views spectrum from Texan Mama, I’ve actually had a similar issue. My in-laws often use words and comments that I would much, much rather not have my children hear. Or even know exist. Trying to correct the comments caused all sorts of family drama and I can’t exactly forbid my children from seeing their grandparents. So I try to use them as teachable moments – after my in-laws have left the room, of course. So far it’s been really great for all of us. Maybe the same will be true for your family in this situation.
Jerseygirl recently posted..How Come You Can Be a Parent Before You Can Drive a Car
Gretchen, I’ll stand up beside you and admit that if I were in the same situation, everything you wrote would be going through my head.
I am a conservative Christian and I’m raising my children as covenant children. My whole parenting goal is to raise two loving, compassionate, strong *Christian* women. Our faith is a big part of our everyday lives in our home. Gay isn’t okay with us. But hate or intolerance or judging isn’t okay either. (Not accusing you at all, Gretchen.)
Public school is a micro-sample of The World, and my girls are supposed to “live in the world”. So I’m not going to home school, or charter school, or send them to the Christian school. Instead, I’m going to use the public school as yet another teaching tool–a way to coach them through The World, and yet still provide a soft place to land at the end of the day to refuel, question, vent, and then get up and go back at it the next day.
I would be okay with gay. And honestly, the “gay talk” would probably only happen for a couple weeks before the school year moved on and the teacher’s sex life wasn’t discussed by anyone anymore. By October, kids and parents will be more worried about math homework than who the teacher climbs into bed with at night.
But the dinner talks about being gay would be a lot different at my house than at the homes of other commentors. We wouldn’t be politically correct. We would be saying, “Let’s see what the Bible has to say,” followed by, “Now let’s see how God wants us to act and how we are to treat your teacher…with love and respect…and let’s talk about how you can do that.”
I didn’t read through all the comments, because yikes! It’s crazy up in here. But if you were looking for a controversial guest post, you found it. :) Don’t let the hateful comments eat at you, okay? I’m only an e-mail away for Blog Support!
I do appreciate the reasoned tone of the post. That said, I reject not only your viewpoint on gays, but also on surrounding your children, as much as possible, only with people who share your values.
From a parenting perspective I think you get a lot more out of exposing your child to a wide range of people and then discussing things you disagree with or differ with people on. I am an atheist who has many religious friends. I don’t consider my role as a parent to indoctrinate my children in my belief system. Of course they understand what I think and believe, but they are free to pursue and question as they wish. Since the youngest of my children is now almost 16, I am fairly sure that none of them will turn out to be a conservative Christian–though they’ve all been to church many times with friends. I have never been threatened by their exploration of belief systems that differ with mine.
I can’t imagine feeling that I was a successful parent because my children followed my belief system simply because it was the only one I let them know.
On point to your example. My oldest daughter’s third grade public school teacher, a Pastor’s wife, was totally inappropriate in the way she voiced her religious values to the class. She was also an amazing teacher with great love for her students. What did I do? Talked to my daughter about the fact that she shouldn’t have been discussing her religious views in that particular venue and then ignored it and focused on all the wonderful things the teacher did.
Jenn @ Juggling Life recently posted..Full Confessional Friday
well, as a mother to a gay man, I think they should make schools for all gays, or all straights.. because I do not want him being around people that are not exactly like him. I think that we should NEVER EVER have to meet anyone that is different, and God forbid ( this is not blasphemy, he really does forbid it) that we accept that we are all different and learn to live our lives like ” normal people”
and grocery stores, malls, coffee shops, libraries, bathrooms, and buses, I do not want him to EVER be exposed to a straight person. Personally their beliefs baffle me..
How can some like some else of a DIFFERENT sex.. eeek weird.. right?
( please hint my sarcasm) this is so outrageous, the bible teaches that we love all people, and yet it seems that ” Christians” are the most intolerable?!
ever heard the saying, ” Christians are the single cause for atheism in the world today”
I’m in on this late, but just had to make a comment. As parents we do the best we can for our kids. Everyday we struggle with this amazing, awesome and fearful responsibility of bringing up well-adjusted children who feel loved and will become productive citizens of this world.
It is important to understand that there is a difference between “sheltering” and “parenting”. Sheltering is not letting your kids see anything outside of your own personal lifestyle. Parenting is letting your kids know “things” and giving them the truth on a level appropriate for their development. What I tell my five year old about sex and my eleven year old are very different things, but I am truthful at all times.
If you explain homosexuality as a “bad habit” or a ” bad lifestyle choice” you are teaching him/her your personal bias. If you explain it to them and then let them know that you do not agree with it you are teaching him /her your values. There is such a fine line that many don’t reconize it.
Cudos to all who had a civilized discussion and to Scary Mommy and Texan Mama.
Love one another.
If you want your child’s teacher to be a heterosexual, conservative Christian then enroll them in a private Christian school. Wake up Mom! It’s a big, wide world and not every one shares your beliefs nor do they want to. Fourth grade teachers do not discuss their sex lives with their students or the parents so relax.
I’ve been thinking a lot about this post and to be honest, I still can’t decide exactly how I feel about it.
Yes, it’s written ‘nicely’ and not full of hate, however it is still espousing a perspective, that I just can’t help but find it ignorant and intolerant.
For starters, if you don’t want to expose your children to the “real world” then homeschool them. The “real world” should be suffer because you are afraid of what you don’t understand.
Other people should not suffer (loose jobs, be ostracized, bullied, etc) because you don’t agree with it.
I think I may be in a minority here, but while I think it is really nice of you Jill to offer your space to views that you do not agree with I guess I find it difficult to reconcile offering space to such narrow minded and truly hurtful point of views. Civilized or not, Texan Mama’s viewpoint and post perpetuate a culture of fear and intolerance and I just find it hard to see the value in giving it more exposure.
I’m sorry I can’t be more positive
Naomi recently posted..How do you teach social values
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Even though I disagree with you (oh, do I disagree!), I do think you were brave to post and I can see in your post and your comments that you are a thoughtful person who is trying to be heard. One question:
You wrote:” I just want my child to be surrounded by adults who support and practice our family’s value system.” My question is this: How do you know that the other adults who teach your children ‘support and practice’ your family’s value system? I’m confused on that point. It would seem to me that your child may have many teachers along the way would have the potential to act and live in ways that do not fit with the life of a conservative Christian. Why single out this specific issue as so important?
First I have to say, I REALLY feel like you should be homeschooling. A sin, is a sin, right? Well I hate to break it to you EVERY teacher is a sinner. NO one sin is greater than the others. Having a homosexually teacher is far less concerning than having one who is arrested for giving drugs to minors. If it is your desire to place your children in a protective bubble, homeschool is the only option. It’s not what I want for my kids, but if it is what you want you are well within your rights as a mom to do so.
Secondly, as an education student, I want to say if ANY teacher talked about their sex life in front of a class they would lose their job.
If a bunch of nosy mom’s searched this woman and found her facebook and discovered she was gay, that is their problem.
Kids are remarkably accepting. IF they noticed or heard something different, I can bet they will be curious for a day and forget about it. Parents are the cause of this hate.
put very well!
I come from a family that is dotted with both serious mental illness and homosexuality. There is something to the idea of genic therory and the argument is getting stronger. We have traced this pattern back for three generations. My gorgeous cousin committed suicide after many years of fighting with the fact that he was homosexual. He secretly loathed who he was as a human being and never accepted who he was born to be. There was no choice in this………. He was a successful man, talented in his chosen profession, he had many friends, he was loved by his family, he was a good person, his kindness and generosity where legendary and this dear man died alone never knowing the love of another human being. He died feeling judged and dirty and wrong because he was born different. This man and another two of my family members tried hard not to not be gay but it was not something they could choose or change. Why would anyone choose this kind of life for themselves. Who are we to judge if love should between a man and a woman or a man and a make? How would I feel if my daughter came home and told me she was gay? It would make no difference to me because it would not change who she is as a person. Yes we all have a right to opinon but we need to be so careful how we voice it, some issues are so sensitive and we need to be gentle with our words. Teenagers are dying in great numbers because their sexuality is not being accepted, they are being bullied and made feel that they are less than or freaks because they are attracted to the same sex. This to me is not good enough and I understand just how they feel. I have bipolar affective disorder, there are people who look at me differently, I have been discriminated against and I fight every single day for acceptance. I try and embrace my differences and help others to do the same……. At the end of everyday these issues are about being different, it is O.K to be different. If you spend your life trying to be a good person, if you do the right thing, if you have empathy for others and so on it should not matter who you curl up with at night. Love is love. Telling someone that they are gay by choice is no different to someone saying I am bipolar by choice. Peace to all.♥
My basic beliefs run pretty close to Texan Mama’s… and that said:
Public schools are a government institution. Sexuality should not come into the classroom in grade school, period. Straight or gay, it should not enter in. Neither should religion or lack thereof. I don’t care if you go to my church, it is not your job to teach my children about God at school. That is MY JOB.
If you talk about sex to a classroom of 9-year-olds, I’m going to make it my mission in life to get you fired and banned from teaching. Because that is inappropriate, whether you are straight or gay. So it shouldn’t matter which way the teacher sways.
As for morality in general, the schools don’t make the teachers pass a morality test when they apply for the job. There are plenty of immoral straight teachers that seem nice. They aren’t wearing a banner to alert you to their presence. You can’t protect your kids from them in public school, or in life in general.
I guess I’m saying… whatever my personal feelings are about the gay debate, it shouldn’t matter for my 9-year-old’s teacher because it should NEVER come up in the classroom.
I don’t think anyone on here would disagree with you. And the teacher hasn’t done that.
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
meaning, inappropriately talking about sex to students. I haven’t seen anyone think it’s appropriate behavior for a teacher.
Loralee recently posted..Homeschooling feedback needed Gulp
my children attend a christian school so the role models are our choice. I agree with this post with all my heart! I WANT my children to live in a bubble – I purposefully place them in the bubble! they are small – they are little = there is PLENTY of time for my children to be exposed to issues – that right now – at their young age – I do NOT want them to even know exist! Gay is one of those issues – abortion is one of those issues – it’s my choice as a parent to decide when they hear about these issues. Not exposure in a school. hear hear – loved this post!
I know that I’m late here… and that all of you are probably commented out at this point but OH MY.
This right here breeds hate. PERIOD.
“I would prefer my son’s teacher be someone who shared my belief system. I would prefer she be a heterosexual.”
The word PREFER here is really important. Prefer means that if there is a choice, you’d pick one over the other. Why would a person choose one thing over another? How does that happen? WELL… we weigh the positive and the negative and we choose the outcome that will leave us feeling as positively(good) as possible.
SO… in “preferring” your son’s teacher be a heterosexual you have thought about the choice (if given one, obviously) and weighed the options, the positive and the negative – and your choice, your preference, would be the straight teacher. In keeping with the logic of making a choice, a straight teacher would equal the most positive of the two choices…. leaving a gay teacher as the more NEGATIVE or BAD choice – it’s the choice that is less good, which is why we chose the other option.
By “preferring” a straight teacher you are teaching your child that a straight teacher is a better choice than a gay teacher. Go ahead and read that again. Do you feel like a douche bag yet? Because I would.
Children’s brains aren’t able to fully comprehend these really important, intricate and sensitive situations. All they know is that mommy prefers a straight teacher so there must be something wrong with gay ones. We don’t “agree” with that lifestyle. God tells us that the straight choice is better than the gay choice. Straight people are better than gay people – THIS IS THE LESSON YOU’RE TEACHING WHETHER YOU REALIZE IT OR NOT.
I will never teach my children that we or they are better than someone else. Because those children grow up to look down on people, they tease people, they bully people, they judge people.
This lesbian teacher prefers women over men romantically. THAT’S IT. It’s not like she has pictures of vaginas plastered all over the 4th grade classroom with big yellow smiley faces on them. It’s not like her secret squirrel mission in life is to sneak in comments about hot ladies in between volcano demonstrations. GET OUT of your freaked out Christian cave and wake up. Stop FINDING reasons to look down on people. Stop MAKING UP reasons to be paranoid. What is the worst that this woman could POSSIBLY DO as a 4th grade teacher that warrants this kind of judgement and hatred?
All of these comments about how nicely worded and respectful your post is are making me ill. All of that sugary sweet fluff might as well just say “I’m showing my kid how to hate”…. “prefer” a straight teacher…. people use to “prefer” white people too… so they bought and sold black ones. People use to “prefer” non-jews so they rounded up and shot jewish moms in front of their kids….
Preference is a very slippery slope ma’am.
Since there are almost 500 reply’s at this point, I am skipping around and only reading some. Yours Michelle, I think is my favorite so far.
This is obviously a hot button topic. I simply cannot imagine sheltering my kids from LIFE. If I did, I wouldn’t be the parent that is preparing them to live in the real world.
I have 3 sons…22, 20, 15. The ONLY reason I would hope that any of them were not gay…is because of small minded people that would only see that small portion of who they would be.
I don’t know about you, but as a straight woman, I certainly don’t run around all day thinking about sex (there is laundry and cooking to do ya know), and I am fairly certain that if I were gay, I STILL wouldn’t be running around thinking about sex all day (the laundry and cooking again).
There is so much more to people than their penises and vagina’s.
Michelle, your comment is SPOT ON!!!!
here
here
It seems to me that if we find it necessary to “judge” other people, that maybe the only criteria worth looking at would be how they hate, not how (or who) they love.
I truly feel it is hypocritical to say “I can accept gay people but do not condone their lifestyle.” How are you accepting and loving of someone if you feel they are making immoral choices- which are not “choices” by the way. Lifestyle choices are how you dress, how you spend your time, where and how you live. Immoral behavior is beating your wife, molesting your children, lying, committing murder, etc.. – in *my* opinion.
If we were to spend more time acting out of love towards ourselves, our families, our neighbors, rather than focusing our energy on judging the behaviors of others, we might ll be better off.
And our actions will always speak far louder than our words. Why, just tonight we were explaining to our 4 yr old why it is really gross to pick your nose, and please use a kleenex, and here, dad even showed her how to use it. Well, we made some progress until 7 minutes later, when my daughter looked over at dad and announced loudly, “Dad, why is it okay for you to pick your nose?” Crap. Another lesson down the tubes- thanks, DAD! My point, boogers aside, is that children absorb, like a sponge, everything around them as they are learning to process this great big world that is still very confusing to me. If I say “What a beautiful sunny day! How lucky we are to have such beautiful trees in our yard!” they then begin to appreciate the beauty around them. And if we are full of fear and judgement, unfortunately, they are absorbing that also- whether or not that is our intent.
I absolutely loved your post Gretchen…….morally you are spot on. Always listen to that internal voice and pay no attention to any doubts that try to creep in.
You are on the Right path, just keep going!
WHAT’S RIGHT FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY GRETCHEN, IS GOOD AND WHOLESOME. Our children are entrusted to us for what seems like only a few short years, therefore, it is our duty to protect our children’s innocence from bad influences…….if we can achieve this with compassion and understanding then we have done a Good job. YOU ROCK TEXAN MAMA :)
1) I admire the honesty here and the ability to have an open debate about a delicate issue.
2) How do you know that she doesn’t share your other core values? Just because she loves a woman doesn’t mean that she isn’t kind, caring, smart, nurturing, etc.
3) You’re right. We can’t choose everything to be exactly as we’d like for our children. And you know what? They learn so much from all of the experiences that we perhaps didn’t choose from them. And those are important lessons to learn. We just can’t keep our kids in a bubble.
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First, let me say that I think most people missed the point of the blog. It was not about whether it was okay to be gay or not or whether being gay is a choice or not….although I know the title might say otherwise. While that was an element of the discussion, I read it more about letting the outside world influence your children. And unfortunately, unless you home school them, it is something you can’t stop. Choosing public schools over religious ones is a huge choice as well, especially when religion is so fundamental to your family. I am not religious at all, but I support everyone’s right to choose how to live their lives. The thing is, children are smart. If you have raised them right, which is sounds like you have, then they know what their fundamental beliefs are and they will make the right decisions. But you have to give them an opportunity to do that. The world is full of different people and different beliefs. Religion should teach love for everyone and tolerance. Unfortunately, too many times it teaches that if other people don’t believe what you do, they are wrong or bad. I also think that too many times children are forced to believe in something but never really given a choice in the matter. If your children are exposed to different points of view, and then come back to your core values, then they truly do believe. And as for the whole gay discussion, everybody has a right to live their life the way they want. Worry more about your own life and maybe the world would be a better place.
I have a dear friend who chooses to raise her kids in a “bubble”. She is an amazing mom, her kids are wonderful, kind and well-rounded. How her kids will handle the world when they are grown, we will just have to see.
We have talked about how we raise our kids differently and agree that we are both awesome moms with great kids. She has told me that I have chosen the harder way and maybe she is right, but my kids are doing well and are very accepting, open and KIND to all people.
The point is that we both have a choice. If you don’t want your kids around homosexuals you better homeschool. If your child ends up being a homosexual you’ll just have to disown him or accept it.
Also remember that your never really know anyone. My beloved youth minister ended up being a pediphile. Another member of my church growing up is now on the sex offender list in our state. Make your bubble very small if that is what you want to do, but you cannot make other people live in this bubble.
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this is so frickin true i can’t even believe it. it is impossible to know what another person is REALLY like, no matter how much you’d like to deceive yourself otherwise. anyone can be thinking anything at any moment, and you can’t protect your children all the time. you just have to teach them what’s right (or at least your version of what’s right) and hope they have the sense to stay safe and be good.
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Hi Gretchen,
I think you make a really valid and well-reasoned argument about the universal parental desire to raise children that honor the values we think are most important. I absolutely respect your attempts to do that for your family. Also, I can tell from your thoughtful post and respectful dialogue in the comments that one of the values you hold dear is tolerance. While you and I probably have very divergent political/social views, I really respect and admire your tolerance of people and ideas that differ from your own. But here’s the thing. I think you may be doing your kids a great disservice by inadvertently neglecting to pass your value of tolerance on to them. And this is why. You think your kid’s science teacher is a good teacher, you respect her, you value the education she’s giving your son, you treat her with respect and appreciation when you interact with her, and you allow your son to see you treat her this way. So even though you think her homosexuality is wrong, you still interact with her in a respectful, tolerant way. But you’re only comfortable doing this if your son doesn’t know she’s gay. So he’s not getting the lesson of tolerance. He’s only learning that you respect people who value what you value. You said there’s a young man in your family who you love to pieces, who lives unmarried with his girlfriend. You love and respect this man, enjoy his company, invite him into your home, and appreciate his interactions with your kids, even though you think his living arrangements are wrong. That’s tolerance. However, your kids don’t get to witness your example of tolerance, because his interaction with them is predicated on the fact that he hides his living arrangements from them. They don’t see you being tolerant of someone whose values differ from your own. They only see you loving people whose values align perfectly with the ones you espouse. Your children don’t get to learn how to love and respect someone whose values differ from theirs/yours, because you’re pretending that everyone they love and respect has the same values you do. Do you see how this can be dangerous? They’re learning that everyone good, and respectable, and loveable necessarily espouses the same values that they’ve been raised with. Even if you don’t actively teach them that people with different values are bad, undeserving of respect, undeserving of love (and I’m sure you don’t), this is what they may be inferring from your behavior. Gah, I hope I’m being clear, here. The point I’m trying to make is that it might not be such a bad thing to let your kids know that there’s a whole world out there full of wonderfully decent people who have different values than they do. Or to let them know that you respect, appreciate, enjoy the company of, and even love a bunch of people who have values different from your own. It’s ok to be different. And different people are ok. I know you believe this. Please think about whether or not you think this is an important value to teach your kids. And if you do think it’s important, please, please think about whether or not you’re doing the best job you can in this arena. You sound like a good person. And like you, I really want your kids to grow up to be good people, too.
Take good care,
Ayana
Ayana, I wish I were classy, intelligent and articulate as you are here. I appreciate what you said here (and it makes perfect sense to me!) Since there is no link where your name is, I assume that you do not have a blog? I wish you did because I would be a loyal follower. Peace.
Absence of Alternatives recently posted..I will stab anyone who says “Boys will always be boys”
Ayana, your post is SOOOOO great!! Nice words
Ayana, I really hope Gretchen reads your comment.
I too am a conservative Christian (Catholic). I remember when my kids were little being mildly concerned about the gay couple who became our neighbors. How would the conversation go about their relationship? I soon realized my concerns were unfounded because children are very accepting and mine never thought to question the relationship of our neighbors.
In fourth grade, I don’t think anyone’s sexuality should be discussed in the classroom no matter what. As far as saying, “I went to the zoo with my partner”, it would probably not even be noted by a fourth grade class. If it is, what’s wrong with teaching your fourth grader acceptance for others’ values, just as you would like your values accepted and respected?
Gay is a choice? You don’t remember the tomboyish girl from kindergarten? The little boy in preschool who played with girls instead of boys? At that age, children are who they are, period. And for some of them, that means gay.
Yes, there are plenty of adults who may make such a lifestyle decision, but far more were born that way, period. For crying out loud, scientists have already found the responsible gene. To say it’s a choice is to take the easy way out of a difficult theological discussion. Furthermore, it’s smug judgement, not a very Christian attitude.
One of the reasons I quit going to Christian church was the attitude that only certain people belong in church. My church family could talk a good game about charity and God’s children, but when the local drug abuser or stripper or adulterer showed up on Sunday, it was clear they weren’t welcome. Even Jesus himself would probably feel unwelcome in most American churches.
When I saw this post in my inbox my first reaction was: Wow. She’s got some balls. (And I am going to assume that you don’t allow languages like this to be in your house or around your kids. ;-) )
I cannot disagree with your opinions more further (bad grammar I know. Probably frowned upon eh in every household) but I do have to give you and Jill both kudos for trying to open up a forum for civil discussions.
I haven’t been able to read through all 500 comments. I just want to bring something up, from a non-Christian perspective, a lot of statement here equates Christianity to anti-gay, and makes the assumptions that the ONLY and TRUE interpretation of the bible etc. concludes that god or Jesus or whoever disapproves of homosexuality (and working on Sundays too! I wish they had written down something like THOU SHALL NOT WORK MORE THAN 33 HOURS A WEEK also. I’d be a convert before you can say VODKA!) It is my understanding, again, from my perspective of a non-Christian, ethnographical perspective, that not ALL Christian churches/denominations subscribe to that interpretation. So when you are talking about god and Jesus from your perspective which is unique based on your denomination/church, an acknowledgement should be made that this is not representative of all Christian churches/denominations.
p.s. It is so tempting to ask, “So how do you feel about people from completely different cultures such as Asian countries? Will you allow your children to travel?” South Korea, being predominantly Christian, would be a good and safe destination, fyi.
Absence of Alternatives recently posted..I will stab anyone who says “Boys will always be boys”
Its taken me 24 hours after reading this post to identify the dissonance in it. Forgive me if my response goes on a bit long.
Gretchen, I am inferring from this, perhaps incorrectly, that you are one of the people who believes that “traditional values” are under assault and there are forces out there who would have you renounce all that you hold dear: your religion, your worldview, your way of living. I, for one, do not wish that for you. I do not. I acknowledge your views, to some degree I understand them, and I do not begrudge you your choices. They are yours and your alone and ultimately, they have no impact on me whatsoever. Until you start asking that the greater world step beyond acknowledeing them and alter itself to suit you. That attitude is unacceptable. Gretchen, I am not going to change who I am simply because you wish it nor am I going to mask it. You pay excellent lip service to the idea of tolerance of other value sets but you clearly think those value sets should not compete on a level plain field with yours: in other words, its fine for a school teacher to be gay but she cannot act gay, talk gay, or think gay in the presence of you and yours because her values take a backseat your own.
I guarantee you that your son’s 4th grade teacher feels just as strongly about her values as you do about your and does not want to set them down and pick up yours at your behest. Just as you would not wish to set yours down and pick up hers at her behest. Her values are just as valid. Her values are just as reasonable. She has as much a right to her values as you do to yours and to ask her, or anyone, to defer their values in service to you is patently unfair.
The other thing that rings wrong is your concern that exposure to one lesbian school teacher will derail all of those values you feel so strongly about. If, Gretchen, they are so strong and so right that you think they deserve to take precedence over all other values, why are you so afraid that they might crumble the moment your son is exposed to something different? That fear reveals either a deep concern you have in the validity of your values or a deep concern you have about the convictions of you son. If your values set you on as strong a path as you indicate they have, if exposure to myriad challenges in the course of your life has not veered you off that path, why do you think one teacher will turn your son away from them? What do you really distrust? A gay teacher or your own ability to convey your beliefs and our own child’s ability to live by them?
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A teacher in my fifth grade class once called his partner Bob in my hearing. As a result, I immediately became gay. And a satan worshipper.
Oh no, wait….
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If I tell you that 2 of my children are homosexual will you judge me? If I tell you that 1 of my children earned a living as a stripper for while, will you judge me? If I tell you that 1 of my grandchildren (the 2nd of 2 “out-of-wedlock” grandbabies) is being raised by a loving couple who adopted her and the other out-of-wedlock grandchild is being raised by his aunt…will you judge me? If I tell you that I’m Christian, will you judge me? Have you already dismissed me because now you know all you need to and you’ve formed your opinion of my values?
Raising children effectively should mean preparing them for the real world, in all its diverse glory. How are you planning to transition your children from the bubble they’re in to a life where they run into people who are different or who think differently and hold different values than you (i.e. those pesky “negative influences”)?
If I’d conveyed an intolerance of homosexuality to my children, would that have prevented them from becoming homosexual? If I’d somehow protected them from outside influence, would they be straight? It seems silly to believe that. I love my children. I want them to be happy and fulfilled in their lives. I’m sad that there are people who might find them unworthy and ill-suited for certain careers because of their sexuality.
If a teacher is good at what they do (which should mean they are NOT talking about their sexuality) then the rest shouldn’t matter. If the teacher is bringing their sexuality into the classroom…well, that’s a different conversation isn’t it? It’s the classroom behavior we should challenge, not the person or their lifestyle.
I trust our loving and gracious God who sits in judgment; I pray for all those who are trying to fill His role here on earth. Our responsibility is to LOVE one another, not JUDGE one another.
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We live in a world where we want the quick fix and easy answer. As if it’s as easy as “Where’s the gay gene?” The formation of life is a delicate dance with many factors playing a role.
Here’s a good (scientific) read: “Gay, Straight, and the Reason Why: The Science of Sexual Orientation” by Simon LeVay.
I like this post because it’s honest. And while I don’t agree with it for my family, it’s an honest post from a mom who is doing the best she can for her family. And I like that.
Caryl
I haven’t read all the other comments yet, but I wanted to say that my children attend a religious school. Most of the teachers are conservative Republicans. My husband and I are bleeding-heart Democrats. I think one of the truest measures of teaching values is how you integrate other belief systems into your childrens’ lives.
My kids know that some of the social/political discussions they hear at school are not part of our beliefs and we are able to make those teachable moments to talk about why we believe what we believe and why others have different beliefs and why they might espouse those views. While sexual preference is not the same thing, I’ve always said that I’d rather my kids grow up and choose to be Republicans than to grow up and be Democrats because they never learned the other side.
Brave post, both of you.
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Wow!! I am a bit overwhelmed by this. I do not agree with Texan moma and believe as a Christian that being gay is not a choice. I could go on but feel like my liberal views have been adequately covered. The isuue I am responding to is actually hoping that we can expose our kids to role models that have the same moral, social, religious views( I am expounding a bit) as ourselves. If this was my hope my kids would never be able to leave my side. I have great friends and family in a very small conservative community. The majority of people my children are around do NOT agree with my views! However, I try when I am frustrated to use all of these moments as opportunities to teach my children or at least talk about different views on the matter. I hope
Texan mama after all this debate, remembers she if fostering tolerance in her children( I want to say not hate but I feel confident even though I have never met her that she is not fostering hate because if she was she would not keep responding to all of us liberals). The world is not a perfect place, religion is not without flaws, and we are all are just human trying to get through the day doing the best we can. I also hope that discussion fosters questions and maybe answers. May we all come out of this knowing more that we did before and perhaps with a little more tolerance and respect even when we agree to disagree.
I guess the real question is, at this point … if anyone is capable of refraining from defending their actions and really, take something home from some of these comments?
Texas Mama, is there any validity in any of this?
Having open dialogue is fun but it’s much more interesting if someone (anyone) read something new and enlightening and are new viewing the world through different glasses.
Here is what I agree with. We do the best that we can to raise our children to be responsible and productive members of society. The gay thing I will stay off of. I voiced my opinion about it on my blog last week. However though I can understand you wanting to shield your children from certain things you can not shield them from everything. They could be hearing and seeing things way worse than their teacher being a lesbian in the schoolyard and probably are. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with the qualifications to be a teacher. If you want to make sure you shield your children from certain people as mentors then you best bet is to home school your children or put them in private school that is religion based. I am not saying you have to I am just saying that is the only way to guarantee you approve of the teachers guiding your children.
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EXACTLY!! What makes you think that we will believe you to be tolorant and loving of someone different than yourself , when you condem this person to having less intellegence or morals or self control , by stating something so unfounded as ” I’m okay with them as long as they can remain professional” I find this to be a very fearful and almost ignorant statement to make. Considering how many heterosexual teachers seduce their students or even possibly abuse them sexualy or mentally by being that POSITIVE role model that the student looks up to and wants the teacher to like them. I think that you, without maybe even realizing it are, assuming that the only people you have to worry about are those who are different from yourselves. This leaves the possibility of your children being wrongly treated in the classroom or sexually by those who do share in your beliefs!! I mean you almost are telling your children to WATCH out , that lesbian is going to try and feed you lies and unchristian thoughts in sneeky ways , so keep on your toes. But its okay for that guy in our church, or that teacher to touch you or speak to you inappropriately because we believe in the same things. Its a really poor arguement to state that you think that person is great and a terrific teacher , you just really wish that she wasn’t gay because it would make it easier on YOU, because in some way you could worry less about her actions. I think that you have more to worry about with a heterosexual being inappropriate than a homosexual because a homosexual has already seen and experienced what it is like to have a watchful eye on then and their actions. I feel that as a heterosexual I often find myself saying things that I don’t even think twice about because maybe I am used to people sharing my opinion or not being confrontational or keeping watch on what I say and when i say it.
I apologize if this has been discussed. Over 400 comments to skim through is asking way too much of my tired brain.
I love Texan Mama’s faith in her self and her point of view. She expressed herself very well and made a strong argument.
Here is why we are different: I grew up in a small town with very isolated experiences, never discussing politics, economics, any OTHER religion and certainly not sexuality. I don’t want that for my child. I also know myself well enough that I don’t have the knowledge and experience to provide a variety of viewpoints for my daughter (and future children.) So yes, if my children’s teachers are gay, muslim, Republican, fine. They will then have the opportunity to decide for themselves what is right, wrong or just different.
Now that I have read through each and every response multiple times, I’d like to say one last thing: My intent for allowing this to be posted on my site was a hope that somehow, someone reading the comments might gain a new perspective. Obviously, Gay is more than OK. In a teacher, in a friend, in a child… whatever.
Bigotry exists. Racism exists. Anti-semitism exists. It does and it sucks. I think the only way that we can hope to move forward is by having discussions like these. Yes, we shouldn’t *have* to be having them in 2010, but the fact that someone wrote the post, thought the thoughts, shows how much we DO.
The fact that I have offended some of my gay friends saddens me and I apologize for that. That was the last thing I wanted to do. Having a post like this published on a site belonging to a conservative Christian woman would have gained little attention and would have been met with support. Here, it could actually make a difference.
At least I can hope.
Jill, I’m an English teacher. My biggest goal is critical thinking–the ability to make an argument have have sound reasoning to support it. I try to have these discussions all the time through literature or articles that my students (mostly adults) read for class. I applaud your effort here to foster this discussion. I think it’s important. We can’t always be on the same side and believe the same things as others, but I think it’s noble to try to listen to each other. It’s the best thing we can do. So I hope you realize that your intention here was a good one, and the discussion you provoked is positive. This is one of the great things about blogs–they can serve as a form of activism.
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Jill, I respect your decision to do so and yes it does spark a 2-sided presentation in the comment section on your site. However we should not confuse “both sides laying out their opinions and be done with it” with a “discourse” or even a “debate”. We should all remember that “The right to hold an opinion carries with it the responsibility to defend it.”
The above quote (and below) is from “Heroes and Villains”:
“Our society has come to believe that any viewpoint is a legitimate viewpoint, so long as there’s someone out there to espouse it. While this might make for good jokes on The Colbert Report, it’s actually a greater threat to America than terrorism or drugs or any of the other causes we have decided to ‘declare war’ on.”
I will stop “trolling” here now. Peace out.
But sadly, you seem to be the one that needs to gain the new perspective and you don’t appear to get that……..
I haven’t read through every comment. The one thing that stands out for me with the comments I have read is the word “Christian.” I know A LOT of gay people who consider themselves “Christian,” who go to church every Sunday, who get down on their knees and pray just like the “Christians” that you speak of.
After all of this, I wonder if I still want to be associated with the word “Christian.” Why would I want to affiliate myself with people who teach and preach hate and prejudice. I have been struggling with religion for a while. I have never been a fan of organized religion. To me Christianity shouldn’t be about hate and thinking that you are better than others. It should be about peace and love and helping those in need. Not trying to save someone just because you don’t agree with them.
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This comment is exactly how I feel! Had to tell you that!
I love this comment. I am also a Christian, but I don’t use it as an identifying characteristic. In my opinion, it is the answer to the question “What is your religion?” not “Are you a good person?” I know plenty of people who consider whether someone is Christian or not as a resounding endorsement of character. And yet, I know people who consider themselves “good Christians” who are judgemental and closeminded. And even a few who are despicable human beings. And I know many, many ethical, moral, good people who are people of non-Christian faith or are not religious.
And hopefully I don’t need to say this, but I will, I don’t know Texan Mommy at all, so this is no comment whatsoever on her character.
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I think that you are attempting to shelter your child from the world when you say you only want them to be exposed to people of the same belief system (whether you actually take actions to ensure this desire ir not). Just as you choose not to have cable in. Your home, but allow your children to watch it elsewhere- beca different orie ause you have taught them your beliefs on the topic and trust them to use that knowledge appropriately when watching it at other people’s house. You should trust them to apply that same knowledge that you have taught them about sexual orientation when dealing with people of a different orientation and to do so with tolerance and respect. Whether you or they agree with it or not. That is what our jobs as parents are. Not to surround them with ONLY those who think like us, believe as we do, live as we like or look the same as we look. We teach them what we believe people should behave and then sit back and trust that we also raised them to know when and how to apply that knowledge to their own lives.
The fact is that your child will not live in a world of only like minded people. They will live in a world where there are many things that you may not approve of. It will be their choice to live life as they feel they are meant to. We are all given free will for an important reason- it is up to us on our own to come to God. As a parent we can do our very best to protect our children from hurt and pain- but they will experience hurt and pain… that’s a part of life. In the same respect, they can not be sheltered from diversity. In fact- they should be taught that God’s love comes in all forms, all shapes, all sizes. I can tell you honestly, that God reveals his love to me in people of all backgrounds, in all beliefs, in all religions even… not only just the like minded people that I choose to be in my life.
I can understand you wanting to make sure you express your own beliefs to your child, but I think you missed a wonderful teaching opportunity yourself. Open you heart a little bit more to be an example of sharing God’s love with ALL people. That truly is the best lesson you can teach your child.
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I fully agree with you! We have to trust ourselves to teach our children our belief and value systems- and then to apply what we have taught them to all that they encounter throughout life.
Whether you *believe* gayness is a choice or genetic, the real issue is why does is matter? And why, on earth, would a relationship not be open? Talking about value set surrounding the person your child’s teacher chooses to love: Shouldn’t the value lie in the actual love? The quality of the relationship, the demonstration of compassion, the commitment? It seems that if a person was a ‘conservative Christian’ that these things would matter more than the gender of the loved. There are plenty of relationships that are bad models, both hetero and homo.
This makes me mad and sad for kids who are raised with sweeping judgements of people based on how/who they love. It makes me mad and sad that my children will be exposed to this narrow disdain for another based solely on who they kiss at night. It makes me happy to live in Missoula, Montana where these mindsets, while here, are in the minority.
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Jill, Bravo! More respect ju ju flying your way! Marinka, BRILLIANT comment.
Crysta, did she even hear you? Thanks for your comment.
Texan mommy, you WILL be held accountable for judging, and God help your children by your misrepresenting a Lord who is just, kind, graceful, worthy, NON JUDGEMENTAL and who is saddened right now because of your behaivior. Hope your fleeing to your church this morning begging for forgiveness.
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Let me start by saying I acually agree with most of your post regarding what your children should and should not consume. To me that is very logical thinking. I happen to be the same way with my little monster.
However, right when you got to the part about the lesbian teacher, I could feel so deeply the hypocrisy and bigotry. This is the typical white Christian crap that enslaved my ancestors, burned down churches, bomb synagogues, and chastise gays. You know what? To this day they still don’t want to talk about it! If your church is so Godly, why haven’t they raised money to fight racism? After all, it is what will lead to the demise of all man kind. I believe people take racism and the conservative Christian movement too lightly. You guys have ruined the church and what christiananty really stands for. Which is peace and love. Racism should be against the law like drugs or anything else. That will never happen. You know why? You would see a huge surge of Christian white men going to prison. I know this sounds very harsh but all too often unless you are a subject of racism like I am as a black man, people play naive to it and don’t want to talk about it. I shudder to think about what kids are overhearing their parents say about our president. If they are not a supporter, you better believe race is an issue and slurs are flying.
Leave your son’s lesbian teacher alone! How about you make sure your child looks up to you regardless of what they are exposed to? Meaning if you are that concerned have a talk with them about it. Children pick up on cues from us. If you are discussing his lesbian teacher, chances are your children are hearing it and will automatically believe gay is wrong, different and interrupted as “my parents hate gay people”. This is how bullies are born. And we all know where that leads. Other than that my friend, you are just another bigot hiding behind conservitive christiananty. Great post though! This is the kind of dialogue this country needs.
Paul Butler recently posted..Dear People In Line
Gretchen,
Thank you for sharing your perspective. While I do not agree with it, I do recognize that you are uncomfortable with the situation and conflicted about how best to deal with it. It is often scary to send our kids out into the world and have the lessons we teach them challenged. If this is your first time encountering this in a big way, you are lucky to have made it so long!
I have very liberal beliefs that I try to pass on to my children and I often have to explain very conservative attitudes we encounter that run contrary to what my family believes. We are a former military family, live in a very conservative area and I chose to send my oldest child to a Catholic high school , so it has not always been an easy road. I am fortunate in that usually I am countering an attitude that is hateful and exclusionary with one of love and acceptance and children are much more amenable to positive lessons, but it is difficult, none-the-less. I don’t want my children to think the person is bad, but I want them to understand what I think is wrong with what they believe and why I think it is wrong. That is the most difficult part.
I have to say, it seems as though the teacher has not done anything to provoke your concern, except be open in the community about her sexuality. This is just as much about your own discomfort with gay people and that is something you should perhaps explore and try to understand as well. Gay people are a part of our community and it would be a lovely gift to teach your children that you can strongly disagree with something without hate.
Has your child said anything to you? Just be open with your child if they are concerned or confused about the use of “partner” or “wife” by their teacher. Acknowledge your own discomfort and why it makes you uncomfortable. Talk to your child about it without making blanket statements that would paint the teacher as a bad person. Your plan for parenting may not have included this subject at this time, but it is here. Parenting rarely seems to follow our preferred timeline. Reinforce your family beliefs in a positive way such as -
“We believe that the Bible says XXXX (put it in the politest way possible). Not everyone shares this belief, but it is very important to us in our family and our Church. We really don’t agree with the way your teacher lives her life outside of school, but one of the great things about our country is people can live all sorts of different lives and we can still get along and create a great school and community.”
If their are still concerns, I think a very careful and respectful discussion with the teacher would help .
Hopefully you will be blessed with an answer that works for you.
Milica recently posted..Inspiration Monday
I think it says a ton about you, Jill, that you could not only post this, but get the number of thoughtful comments that you have. You’re right, this should not need to be discussed but it does. As a proud mother to not one, but two gay sons, I will tell you that women like your guest poster are far more common than your readers would like to admit. Pretending they don’t exist doesn’t make it true.
I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that your child is going to a public school. If that is the case, well that’s your problem. You should not expect that teachers will have the same belief system as you in a public school environment. It’s just not feasible and honestly if it was such a concern of yours, then the smart thing to do would be to put your child in a private school centered around your family’s belief system. You have options, I suggestion you utilize them.
Angel recently posted..Day 19- I Have No Regrets in My Life– I Think Everything Happens to You For A Reason
Being from DFW, and being a very devoted atheist, I see her side, but only to a point– a very small point. However, it’s still quite naive and hurtful. While I wouldn’t send my child off to Christian Camp any quicker than she would hand her child a poster to march for gay rights — I don’t mind my children experiencing people of faith. Knowing people who attend Church. I know that knowing a Christian isn’t going to make my child open up a Bible, and I know simply knowing of them doesn’t mean this person of faith is automatically pushing their agenda.
I don’t hope people hide their belief systems (it would be silly, considering my in-laws are very dedicated Christians), because it means my child understands there are other ways of seeing and experiencing the world — and opens up the communication lines for me to explain to them WHY we are the way we are in our household, why we feel the way we do about things — which ultimately lets them have a better grasp of themselves, our values and their ability to make a decision.
The thought that this teacher should ever have to NOT refer to her partner as her partner is silly. Why is this mother so afraid of her own children coming to her to ask questions about something they heard in class, to ask her for a better understanding as to why they have the views they have??? To refer to a partner as such isn’t pushing any agenda, unlike hoping the teacher alters her terminology to appease this mother. How is the topic of explaining someone’s choice in love “not 4th grade material” — we had gay teachers, we had divorced teachers, we had Atheist and Christian teachers… and none of it took away from the classroom. This is like it being the 1930′s and hoping if we just keep our children away from folks who aren’t white, they may not accidentally befriend one and then ask their parents to justify why they feel being non-white is so awful. Knowing a homosexual and thinking they are a fabulous teacher isn’t going to “rub off” and suddenly make you homosexual yourself, or hate a god.
Her children live, play, learn and (eventually will) work in this world — this world with all sorts of values and faiths and ethics floating around, and they will need to be able to handle themselves in it. Hiding them from the reality of life isn’t the way to ensure they keep picking your views as their own.
I can’t keep my child from reading the bible like I have and picking another “side” — and because I feel strongly enough about my side, I feel even if they read it, I would have enough ability to talk out why I don’t have a faith in my life.
To me, it sounds like she just is too fearful her children might ever question that she’s chosen something for them they wouldn’t agree with — and her route to avoid this is to do her best to keep her kids from acquiring the skills of tolerance. When her children turn 18 and move out, they’ll either rebel against her or have shell shock at the first site of someone who doesn’t immediately agree with everything they say.
Actually better example. I see she plans to return as a math teacher once her kids are older. She is the small-minded Christian teacher I wouldn’t want teaching my child — IF she were using the classroom to push her views. But she won’t do that, so I would be absolutely fine with her helping my child excel in math.
She assumes that by verbalizing she is a lesbian, her daughter’s science teacher is pushing her agenda. No. She’s being herself. If, amidst chit chat, she mentioned she did something that weekend with her CHURCH group, I wouldn’t care. Just like she shouldn’t care if the science teacher says PARTNER.
She’s just bothered this woman is gay, regardless of if she’s pushing anything in the classroom. She’s bothered this woman is existing near her child and is okay being herself. Would she rather they all wear stars so she can better guide her children away from them at parks and theaters too?? It’s just ridiculous.
At the end of the day we all come into this world as equals and on the die we die we leave as equals……………….. Everything in between should be the same. I am a very liberal human being and I am bringing my daughter up to be the same. The only people who bother me are those who are doing the wrong thing by others. Would you turn down the care of a doctor who was gay? Who you tell a fireman that he could not rescue you from a burning building because he was gay? No? Why then would you be worried about a woman teaching your children because she is gay. Being gay does not define who she is…………. The type of human being and the type of teacher she is defines her. It upsets me that we still live in a world where human beings are measured by issues such as this. Peace.
“I wonder if people who reject organized religion are also being told that their children will grow up to be sheltered and naive? I mean, aren’t they keeping their children from the world too?”
unlike christians, we don’t get that choice. thanks to christians and conservatives (not you in specific, but the groups as a whole), our “minority” viewpoints are shot down and questioned in every space. i do not have children as of yet, but i grew up in a world where i always knew my viewpoints are ostracized. my children will always have exposure to everything, whether i like it or not, and they will learn to form their own opinions. if i were on the opposite end of the spectrum, i would be better able to “shield” and guide because the loudest voices would be saying the same things i thought
When my son was in 5th grade, his respectable, heterosexual, salt-of-the-earth teacher bragged about how she was only charged $25 on her credit card for a $250 coat, and she didn’t call them and correct it, and didn’t she get a great deal there? As far as I was concerned, she taught those 5th graders that it is just fine to steal $225 from Macy’s. So when he came home and told me the story, I asked him what he thought about it, and he said, “I don’t think she is a very honest person.” And I agreed. But we also talked about the fact that she was still his teacher and that everyone in the world looks at things differently, and I told him I was glad he knew right from wrong.
If you haven’t taught them by now to be tolerant of differences, you are a little late to be worrying about the (gasp!) homosexual teacher. I think that you must be a very stupid woman, but hey!…as you said…we are all entitled to our opinion.
I’m also a conservative Christian and I don’t believe people are born gay. I do believe that environment is a large portion or who we are and who we become. I believe that we all come to this earth with divine qualities that make us who we are. Everyone has to choose how they are going to act, react and be with the life we are given. We can choose how to act but we can’t choose the consequences of such actions. Gay or not, I hope all teacher in public school settings will make correct choices and keep their religions, opinions, sexual preferences and what all out of the classroom and stick to teaching the curriculum. (Coming from one who works in a public school district.)
I die a little inside when people who are not gay opine about how gay people chose to be that way. I am gay, but that is only relevant to establish a little of my cred here in what I’m about to write.
I volunteer my time at a hotline that receives many, many calls from people who are gay and completely distraught about it because they are so worried about how it affects those around them.
That’s what you never hear about: How hard gay people work to protect those in their lives from themselves, like they (the gays) are a disease that will take down everyone in their sphere of influence. (And I swear, if anyone responds that gay people ARE a disease, you live a miserable existence and I feel so sorry for you that I cannot credit anything else you say.)
I cannot express to you the anguish that I hear in those voices. And this comes from the children of parents who, yes, have expressed outright hostility toward homosexuals and homosexuality, but just as often the voices come from children of parents who have said, “I’ll still love you, BUT….”
As a gay child and sister and cousin and friend, I can tell you the following: Once gay folks learn a modicum of self-respect and consequently gain self-esteem, once they learn that their sexual orientation is not a result of trauma that frequently did not occur (And how much power are we really willing to give to rapists and child molesters anyway? They now have the power to affect sexual orientation?), and once they learn that “but” shouldn’t enter a declaration of love, they turn away from those who feel like they are not as worthy. You can love them BUT all you want; they will not be willing to share their lives with you out of self defense.
We can couch this discussion in terms of nice behavior and respectful disagreement all we want, but what many out gay people have learned is that if someone feels they are lesser humans because they have chosen to live a life not hating themselves (because THAT is the only choice here), that person will harm them. The harm might be small, but it also has the potential to erupt. Those who continue to spout that they don’t “agree” with the “homosexual lifestyle” are harmful and willfully ignorant about what it means to be gay. A simple Google of what the APA or the success rates of conversion camps could verify that gay people don’t choose to be that way, and that it’s dangerous to their psychological health to try to straighten them out.
I wish I could soften what I’m saying here, but it’s true: It is harmful and hurtful to keep insisting that someone is not what he/she has told you to be true about him/herself. It does incredible psychological and emotional damage to a minority class.
I feel for the writer here in her worry for her children. I really do. And from the comments here, I believe that she is a polite person who does not wish harm on others, BUT it is occurring all the same.
Whinger, What a thoughtful comment. I hope everyone who commented reads it.
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Whinger,
I died a little, too.
In fact, @Kara’s comment was the final straw for me. Unsubscribing from these comments. I can’t take the ignorance. Makes me so sad. And disgusted.
If my son would ever come to me and say he was gay? I would say, “And I love you just the same! PERIOD! High five on being YOU!”
Ugh. People are assholes.
I’m going to add my two cents to the buttom of the pile. I believe I understand the perspective your seeing this from, however I believe as a society when we surround ourselves with people alike, we become unfamiliar and even ignorant with what’s around us. The only way to change societies view on a group of people, whether gay, black, etc, is to teach the next generation that everyone is a person, just like you. By being supportive that your childrens teacher is a lesbian, you will actually be teaching them that she is a person, just like everyone else. Many homosexuals have the exact same religious believes you do. Being homosexual doesn’t definate who you are and how you interact with people no more than being heterosexual does.
As a lesbian and christian I am not surprised by what Texas has said. In fact many people feel this way, and this is something my aunt would of said exactly in those words if she had a blog. I dont think I can blame Texas for the hatred and ignorance she is spreading on her children. In her “world” this is normal. She has been brought up in a church that says her feelings, and hatred on gays is wrong and as a mother she only wants to protect her children from what she has been BRAINWASHED to believe. I am a christian woman myself. I was raised to believe in God and that he sent his only child to die on the cross for our sins. But God is the only one who can judge us. She needs to step out side of her bubble and her church that is brainwashing her to believe what she believe is “normal.” it is not normal and she will continue to pass on her “normal beliefs” to her children, aka she is contuning to spread hatred. The ignorance and HATRED NEEDS to stop. This is NOT okay. but it doesnt start with her. it starts with the church that is allowed to spread this hatred to HER and others and make her feel that this is normal and and okay.
After reading all of these comments…yes, I read them all…I have decided that the best thing to say is pretty much nothing at all. No matter what I say, as a straight Christian Mom of 2, I will be attacked either way. If I say that I don’t agree with the gay lifestyle, I will be attacked. If I say that I am bringing up my children in a Christian lifestyle, I will be attacked. I will be told that I am brainwashing my children, that I am a hater, that I am blah, blah, blah.
This was a well-written article from a very talented, creative, intelligent woman. The woman who writes this blog is also a very talented, creative, intelligent woman. They both have differences in their opinions, but they respect each other’s opinions. I don’t see any respectfulness in some of these comments that people wrote. My Grandmother and my Mother (both Christians) taught me that if you cannot say anything respectful, don’t say anything at all. My buddy Adam, who is a gay man, says the same thing: Respect is what it is all about. I Agree! ‘nough said.
I find it astounding how this discussion is, for the most part, so civilized – this is my first visit to Scary Mommy and I leave (and will return!) with respect for her ànd for Texas Mama, kudos for defending your point of view so clearly and thoughtfully on a different-minded platform: it is easy to preach for you own church, to do so for other-minded people is a whole different story. Respect for doing so, and for doing so well. It is the most tolerant approach towards LGBT issues I have ever heard from a conservative Christian, and while I subscribe to some of the critiques above, I feel this is the most I could ask from someone with your background.
Now I will appeal on your respect for other people, since I am bisexual, have a girlfriend, live out of wedlock with her, and am not religious, so I’m guessing that is about all the wrong choices I can make ( ;) ), but I would like you to ask one thing: do not forget to teach your children that people have the *right* to make the “wrong” choice (from your point of view), and that they should respect that.
Last Saturday, my girlfriend was not allowed to sit with me through the funeral of my grandfather, nor was she invited to the mourning meal that followed. All under: “We respect you and your relationship BUT (insert BS here)”. It exposes every support I thought I received as hypocrite. Please don’t be that mum.
Lies recently posted..Open letter to the former tenant
I don’t think that the question should be “Is Gay OK with you?” but rather Why is this an issue to begin with? I fully understand and encourage the concept of raising your children within your family with your values, morals, and ethics, but you cannot control the outside influences they receive in any public place – not just public schools. My husband and I are pregnant with our first child and we’ve been having a lot of conversations about how we were raised, what we want to incorporate into raising our son and what we’d like to do differently than our parents. For example, My husband and I are both Atheist, our best friends are conservative Christians, my parents are Southern Baptist, and his parents are Catholic. We plan on letting our son decide his own religious beliefs and we will encourage him to ASK QUESTIONS. He will have plenty of people who love him and will be willing to answer and explore those questions with him. Our parents always let us think for ourselves, which means that we don’t necessarily share the same political or religious views that they do. They didn’t try to make us into carbon copies of themselves, but they did raise us with Morals, Ethics, and Values and they are proud of the people we have become. We plan on doing the same with our son and any future children we may have. I read somewhere that a huge misconception in parenting is that parents think they are responsible FOR their child, when in reality they are responsible TO their child, meaning that your children, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, will be their own people. They will make decisions that you may not have made for them. There is nothing you can do about that except LIVE the values you want them to have. Be the example you want your children to see and not worry so much about if their teacher is gay or a different religion or has different opinions than you. You, as a parent, have the most influence over your children just by how you live your life. Don’t judge other people so harshly for living their life they way they see best for them. I know in your article you say that you aren’t judging, but just by worrying about it and writing it out for the world to read, you are making a judgement. You are making the judgement that this is a worthy topic of conversation, when in reality, it is not, and you are setting up a platform for other people to voice harsher judgement. The subtext that I read in this post is that you are afraid. You are fearful that not having control over your children’s outside influences 24/7 might lead to some behavior/opinions down the line that don’t mesh with yours. I hate to be the one to tell you, but that is not a possibility, it is a reality. Like I said before, your children will not be carbon copies of you, and nothing you can do will change that. Worry more about what you are projecting by your actions and words and worry less about the sexual orientation/religious beliefs of others.
I am not a blogger. I don’t uusally read blogs. Sometimes, I check out scrappin, craft or sewing blogs. But, today I stumbled on this. Good grief. Don’t any of ya’ll have anything to do during the day?? I’ve spent the last 15 minutes SKIMMING over some of this trash. Get a life!!!…all of you!!
“But I just wonder if only conservative Christians get accused of sheltering their children. I wonder if people who reject organized religion are also being told that their children will grow up to be sheltered and naive? I mean, aren’t they keeping their children from the world too?”
…I have never in my 40 yrs of life, heard of anyone being concerned that a teacher was “out” as a Christian. I have never in my liberal life heard a parent concerned that a teacher was wearing a cross around her neck.
Also…I went to catholic school my whole life…K-12th grade. I was taught by many nuns. A nun was the Principal of my school. My school was ATTACHED to a convent.
I am not catholic. My family was never catholic. My family was never concerned that I would BE catholic. They were more concerned that I be a smart educated nice person.
I never cared either way WHAT my teachers were as long as they were kind and accepting of ME.
Why do fundamentalist Christians have a problem with gay and lesbian people. I grew up the son of a Methodist pastor so I know a little bit about Jesus. He would have treated gay and lesbian people with the same love and acceptance as he did all people. Fundamentalists do not follow the Bible literally as they claim. Instead, they pick Bible passages to match their pre-existing prejudices. Your argument that the teacher’s sexuality might be a distraction could have been used with a fundamentalist Christian teacher. Many would be concerned that such a teacher would bring religion into the school. Teachers are there to teach whatever subject has been assigned and your concern about their personal lives is irrelevant and unfair, to say the least.
WOW, just WOW! I applaud the both of you for posting this.
My own personal battle is judging. I’m afraid of being judged and I’m afraid I judge others. I try hard not too but I know I fail sometimes. I think the main issue here is feeling like we have the power and resilience to raise our children how WE see fit, not how others see fit or how society sees fit. Gretchen is free to teach her children anything she wants, she’s free to breastfeed or not, use cloth diapers or disposables, she’s free to work for dollars or work raising her children. As am I and you and you and her and him and them. To me, THAT is the point here. I don’t see that Gretchen is trying to get anyone of us to raise our families the way she is, she’s got her own burdens to bear I’m sure, just like we all do.
I can agree or disagree but again, I do not really believe that is the point here. What I read is a story from a mom who is trying to do what she thinks is right for her, her husband, her family and hoping against hope that others will support her right to do just that, but instead it’s become a discussion about religon, sexuality, etc. When in fact, I believe Gretchen’s point may just be that we need to support each other as parents, more importantly as moms. The people we need support from the most these days are the ones who judge us so harshly. Why? Why do we do that? I wish I knew. I can say that I’m guilty have doing it to others. I can say that some have judged me.
In the end, we look at ourselves in the mirror and ask, are we doing what’s right for MY FAMILY, not anyone else, just our families. Isn’t that important?
Aunt Crazy recently posted..What was I thinking
I haven’t had the time to read all the comments, but I really want to know: is she a great teacher? Because if so, that is all that matters.
As a new mother, I question this issue as well. I am a Christian. I don’t agree with homosexuality, but I don’t judge those who are. That is not my place, that is not my job. That is God’s job. I have seen the most amazing nurturing honest gay people and the most hateful mean vile straight people. What makes the swear words coming out of my mouth better than who a lesbian is sleeping in bed with? It’s not my place to judge, so I try REALLY hard not to. I will just educate my child on our beliefs and raise him to be a strong Christian man who is kind to everyone.
:)
Thanks for opening up and being honest.
Katie recently posted..Steppin’ Out Saturday
As a gay man, I don’t worry about God’s judgment. I am, in that respect, who I was created to be. It’s people that scare me.
A few stories from my life:
The first day I picked up my (newly adopted) 5 year old son from kindergarten, another student asked, astounded: “You have TWO moms? Why?” His reply was, “Just lucky, I guess.”
Throughout elementary school, none of the kids cared about the two moms issue. Now that my son is 14, and his friends are adolescents like him, the kids care much more. They have, over time, learned that my being gay is something that they can use to make fun of my son. I find it sad that this is what they have learned.
When I came out to my dad, his main comment was, “Well…I’ve always said that the most important thing in life is that you have someone you love to wake up next to in the morning.”
I wish for all gay families to have not merely tolerance (I’ll live with it if I have to) but acceptance of the non-issue of the sex of the person they love – the one they wake up to every morning.
if this statement is true, “I worry about anytime my children have contact with people outside of our family.” then i suggest homeschooling and a large fence to keep the big, bad world from influencing your children. don’t take them to the grocery store, they might see homosexuals buying food. don’t take them to get their hair cut, they might overhear the gays talking. don’t take them anywhere, because people who were born gay are EVERYWHERE. everywhere. your children will see and hear about gay people if they leave your house so lock the doors and draw the curtains…shelter your precious babies.
i’ll be over here, praying you come to your senses and remember that jesus taught love above all else.
#gayisok
hello haha narf recently posted..39 Today
*Whew* I left a couple of other comments on comments, and really, my thoughts are in the blog I wrote today but I have to say this here- my daughter’s friend a tg got the living crap beaten out of her yesterday for doing nothing more than trying to be herself in a world that is scared of what is different.
I am much more worried about well thought out and articulate posts like this than my redneck neighbor who has the balls to come out and say g-d faggots serves ‘em right, because I truly don’t think Gretchen understands that she is teaching her children that it’s okay to discriminate and spread hate.
I know she means well and wants the best for her family, that’s why it’s so scary. Well scary mommy, you scared me showing me how much ignorance there still is.
If you’re interested http://www.myloonyverse.com/2010/10/its-ok-to-be-gay-but-get-back-in-closet.html
dddiva recently posted..Its OK to be Gay – but get back in the closet! What do you think
Dan Savage speaks about it here much better than I can. This is worth the read for everyone. With all that is happening with our children in the news lately, I think this is a worthy discussion to be having- as we all are trying to raise our children, I assume, the best that we can. And it is only through continued discussion that hopefully we can learn from each other.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/10/01/sl-letter-of-the-day-sorry-nothing-fun
The thing that popped in to my head reading this post was “since when has a teacher’s personal life been of any interest to a 4th grader?” My son had no concept of his teachers outside of school. I had no concept of my teachers being real people outside of school either. Kids aren’t natural gossips, that’s for parents. Kids use words like gay very differently to adults. I repeat myself but, kids really don’t have a concept of sexuality and nor should they. Children’s minds tend to be alot more open than adults and they only think things are wrong if we tell them that they are.
I commend your intention to raise your children with the very best examples of behaviour, and for saying that you don’t judge others for holding different values. (I don’t necessarily believe that is true, but i respect the intention). The thing is, children will always follow their parents in the long run, even to a subconscous level, in both the positive and negative aspects. Your child will one day run with a crowd that you don’t like, will do things that you don’t like, and make decisions that you don’t like. You are in a good place if you can let your child explore that side and come back to the values your family holds dear.
I feel extremely fortunate that I was taught to respect others, to try and be generous and compassionate. Homophobia is rampant in older generations where I live (Australia), as is racist stereotyping and sexism. But my parents set a good example in considering people for who they are on an individual basis, and my generation is more accepting than the last, and I’m extremely proud to say my son’s generation is even more accepting. I am not gay, but many of my close friends are. And quite a few of them are the best in their field, be they teachers, bankers, lawyers and nurses. I feel extremely, extremely fortunate that my son has the benefit of their experiences and their friendship. To put it basically, it is none of my son’s business who they love. And it’s certainly none of yours or mine.
Texan Mama, Thank you for writing this. Scary Mama, thank you for posting this on your blog. My children are not even in school yet and I worry about things like this. The truth, the people our children are surronded by will influence them. Think back to when you were a child, I am sure there are people and things that influenced you that went against what your parents taught you. You made choices based on ALL the information, not just what your parents told you.
Gay, Straight, Mean, Nice, Catholic, Jewish, Christian, Athiest are all lables given to people. Really, they mean very little. But when the people who wear the lables have continued contact with our children they can have a HUGE impact on the choices our children make. A Hypicritical Christian can have a bigger negative effect on a Christian child than someone who disagrees with Christianity, but does it respectfully. I understand the inner battle that Texan Mamma is having right now. She loves her children, she wants what is best for them.
Dolli-Mama recently posted..Sleep Revisited
This made me blog again after several months away. Thank you for the inspiration. http://fiestykel.blogspot.com/2010/10/religion-and-homosexuality.html
I urge all to watch this deeply moving video of a Ft. Worth City Councilman’s testimony. This is what results from teaching children prejudice, consciously or otherwise. The message here may save your own child’s life.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/39680125#39680125
I found this post so deeply offensive I’d think twice about reading this blog again. Would a post by a white woman – a polite white woman – talking about her discomfort with her kid’s black teacher be posted? If racism is not okay, why is homophobia or heterosexism?
None of those are ok. At all.
And, yes, I would have considered a post like that. Wrong or not, they exist and should be addressed. How else do people change?
I dont understand your reasoning and i dont like this article or you. Im sorry, but all my life ive been attacked by christians and catholic for being lesbian. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. i KNOW YOU DIDNT MEAN IT LIKE THAT BUT IT FELT LIKE THAT…..>:(
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